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In Britain, even jails have a class system

theatlantic.com

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Re: In Britain, even jails have a class system

#41

Post by wpietri »

jsjddbbwj wrote: post #33
wpietri wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure. Humans are also naturally violent. We naturally get tuberculosis, too. As conscious beings, it's up to us to decide the good and bad in our natural heritage. To amplify the former and mitigate the latter.

What's wrong with hierarchies?

I am having trouble taking this as a sincere question. You've honestly never seen or heard of hierarchical power being misused? I mean, just to pick one enormous historical trend, there's a reason the world has mostly gotten rid of monarchies, and it's not because we thought crowns and scepters were maybe a bit tacky.

Re: In Britain, even jails have a class system

#42

Post by mytailorisrich »

dmix wrote: post #40

> Lewis: Tell me about “spice,” which seems to have become the British prisoner’s drug of choice. > Atkins: It was so ubiquitous. You could tell straightaway if someone was on it, they’d be zombified, with glazed eyes. They’d just be lying on their bed in a vegetative state. > I think [spice users] are used to smoking strong cannabis. And you can't really get away with that, because of the smell. But spice doesn’t sm…

This misses the elephant in the room: How can they "find" anything in prison?

The only answer is corruption of the prison staff. That has to be the root cause.

[1] https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/sep/01/rise-in-pris...

Re: In Britain, even jails have a class system

#43

Post by jsjddbbwj »

wpietri wrote: post #41
jsjddbbwj wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's wrong with hierarchies?

I am having trouble taking this as a sincere question. You've honestly never seen or heard of hierarchical power being misused? I mean, just to pick one enormous historical trend, there's a reason the world has mostly gotten rid of monarchies, and it's not because we thought crowns and scepters were maybe a bit tacky.

Everything can be misused, that doesn't make everything bad per se. Saying that hierarchies must be mitigated (because they are bad, I assume) is unreal.

Re: In Britain, even jails have a class system

#44

Post by lukifer »

wpietri wrote: post #30
jxramos wrote: post #27

I'm guessing any group of humanity will naturally form hierarchies. Seems like part of human nature.

Sure. Humans are also naturally violent. We naturally get tuberculosis, too. As conscious beings, it's up to us to decide the good and bad in our natural heritage. To amplify the former and mitigate the latter.

The analogy I use for this is gravity vs. space travel. Anyone who says "gravity is the natural state of nature, it's impossible to fly or go to space" would clearly be wrong. Yet someone who says "gravity is a social construct, if you're not able to fly, just flap your arms harder" is wrong as well.

To overcome gravity requires a deeply precise and intricate understanding of gravity. So it is with human nature: the point of a deep understanding of our biological nature and evolutionary baggage is not to succumb to them as fait accompli, but to increase our agency and efficacy within those constraints, such that we become able to transcend them.

Re: In Britain, even jails have a class system

#45

Post by tokamak-teapot »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #42
dmix wrote: post #40

> Lewis: Tell me about “spice,” which seems to have become the British prisoner’s drug of choice. > Atkins: It was so ubiquitous. You could tell straightaway if someone was on it, they’d be zombified, with glazed eyes. They’d just be lying on their bed in a vegetative state. > I think [spice users] are used to smoking strong cannabis. And you can't really get away with that, because of the smell. But spice doesn’t sm…

This misses the elephant in the room: How can they "find" anything in prison? The only answer is corruption of the prison staff. That has to be the root cause. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/sep/01/rise-in-pris...

It is indeed the root cause. But it’s not easy to tackle. If you consider the possible remedies, which seem viable?

Re: In Britain, even jails have a class system

#46

Post by jumpman500 »

wpietri wrote: post #41
jsjddbbwj wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's wrong with hierarchies?

I am having trouble taking this as a sincere question. You've honestly never seen or heard of hierarchical power being misused? I mean, just to pick one enormous historical trend, there's a reason the world has mostly gotten rid of monarchies, and it's not because we thought crowns and scepters were maybe a bit tacky.

You're just thinking about one edge case. Any child is born into a hierarchy if they have a guardian of any sort. If you want to learn from a teacher you have to enter into a student teacher hierarchy. Any engagement with other human beings results in a formation of some kind of hierarchy. We all have different minds, bodies and skills that lead to different natural hierarchies.

Re: In Britain, even jails have a class system

#47

Post by Lio »

botwriter wrote: post #18
tramp0line wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

now say that there are many muslims terrorists and black criminals coming there to do business, see how that is different?

there are gangs of muslim men in the UK raping children, muslim terrorists and black criminals.

It's difficult to even have a balanced conversation about this without tabloid types trying to exploit the situation to cause divisions.

Historically these gangs have been a problem here. They have used fear of racism as a cover for their activity.

This is from the Independent. The right wing media have even more reports and they are, as you would imagine, slightly hysterical (and not in a funny way).

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/grooming-gangs-a...

Re: In Britain, even jails have a class system

#48

Post by mytailorisrich »

tokamak-teapot wrote: post #45
mytailorisrich wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This misses the elephant in the room: How can they "find" anything in prison? The only answer is corruption of the prison staff. That has to be the root cause. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/sep/01/rise-in-pris...

It is indeed the root cause. But it’s not easy to tackle. If you consider the possible remedies, which seem viable?

To tackle corruption of staff and, granted, to enforce serious procedures, is the easiest and most effective route to solve drug issues in prison. As long as drugs can enter prisons they will.

Clearly there does not seem to be much political will to do so. It's easier to pretend and, after all, the victims are only inmates.

Re: In Britain, even jails have a class system

#49

Post by DanBC »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #42
dmix wrote: post #40

> Lewis: Tell me about “spice,” which seems to have become the British prisoner’s drug of choice. > Atkins: It was so ubiquitous. You could tell straightaway if someone was on it, they’d be zombified, with glazed eyes. They’d just be lying on their bed in a vegetative state. > I think [spice users] are used to smoking strong cannabis. And you can't really get away with that, because of the smell. But spice doesn’t sm…

This misses the elephant in the room: How can they "find" anything in prison? The only answer is corruption of the prison staff. That has to be the root cause. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/sep/01/rise-in-pris...

It's very easy to smuggle things into English prisons and it doesn't require corrupt staff.

Re: In Britain, even jails have a class system

#50

Post by majormajor »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #42
dmix wrote: post #40

> Lewis: Tell me about “spice,” which seems to have become the British prisoner’s drug of choice. > Atkins: It was so ubiquitous. You could tell straightaway if someone was on it, they’d be zombified, with glazed eyes. They’d just be lying on their bed in a vegetative state. > I think [spice users] are used to smoking strong cannabis. And you can't really get away with that, because of the smell. But spice doesn’t sm…

This misses the elephant in the room: How can they "find" anything in prison? The only answer is corruption of the prison staff. That has to be the root cause. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/sep/01/rise-in-pris...

Root cause is a vague term. What's the root cause of people being corruptible, and how do you fix that?
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