Early riser or night owl? New study may help to explain the difference • Hacker News Board

Re: Early riser or night owl? New study may help to explain the difference

#91

Post by arcturus17 » Tue, Feb 25, 2020, 4:48 PM UTC

dijit wrote: post #39

I've been a night owl my whole life, with the exception of that period during secondary school where I was so depressed in the evenings I went to bed early and as a consequence woke up super early. I have followed every advice, meditation (1yr), excercise (3*1.5hrs per week for 18 months), staving off screens after 18:00 (8mo), no caffiene, no sugar, no food of any kind, I also tried: too much food, cooling my body d…

I've done everything too, and the only thing that works for me is sleeping pills. I think it's a very unpopular view nowadays (esp. after Why We Sleep), but a small dose of a benzodiazepine changes my life completely.

I'm in the midst of a full diagnostic course including cerebral scans, a sleep study and blood analysis, but my neurologist told me there's a good chance that nothing actionable will be revealed and that the pill will remain the best treatment for the rest of my life.

I just wanted to say to you:

(1) I feel you, it sucks to feel that you're underperforming b/c your clock is messed up, and what further sucks more is that people, especially the internet, will tell you you're doing something wrong, when you're actually a disciplined guy that has tried everything.

(2) Get pro help if you can. Seeing my GP and my neurologist is the first time I've been assured that there's a good chance that this is something that's entirely out of my control, and that _actually feels good_.

(3) "If the mountain will not come to Muhammad, then Muhammad must go to the mountain" - if you can't fix it just roll with it, that's what I've done at times. I've told a few of my bosses I'm a night owl, and they've fully respected it and given great freedom over my schedule.

You've got plenty of options with your skillset... If you wanted to f* off to the beach and code as a freelancer late at night I'm guessing you could also go do that!

Re: Early riser or night owl? New study may help to explain the difference

#92

Post by soylentcola » Tue, Feb 25, 2020, 4:48 PM UTC

dijit wrote: post #79

grumpy8 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You say "You've followed every advice", but what were you trying to achieve exactly? Is it that you can't fall asleep or that you're not productive in the morning, or something else? Personally what worked best for me is just to wake up at 6am for 2 weeks without nap during the day. Most people try to adjust their sleeping time to match their waking time, but they've got it backward. Set your wake up time and listen…

> You say "You've followed every advice", but what were you trying to achieve exactly? Is it that you can't fall asleep or that you're not productive in the morning, or something else? Well, that's a good question since I assumed that the answer was obvious but putting it down is important: I wanted to: A) Not spend hours trying to fall asleep at night. and B) Have energy in the Morning, not feel groggy all day after…

I have to be very careful when I have more than a few days off work in a row. When left to fall back into my own schedule, I always drift toward more of a 2am-10am sleep schedule.

Normally I need to be up at 7am in order to get to work so I have to make certain I'm in bed, in the dark, and reading in dim light by 11pm (midnight at the absolute latest) if I hope to fall asleep at a reasonable time for a 7am rise.

It's not ideal, and as you mention, I typically spend much of the morning groggy and slow, but it's preferable to my late teens/early 20s when I followed my natural rhythm and missed way too many classes or came in late to early, low-level jobs.

I even made sure it wasn't some sort of sleep apnea causing problems but I'm clear on that front and I feel fine when I am able to keep my natural schedule. When I have a couple of weeks off I let myself drift later and get a lot more stuff done.

Re: Early riser or night owl? New study may help to explain the difference

#93

Post by bosswipe » Tue, Feb 25, 2020, 4:48 PM UTC

ZanyProgrammer wrote: post #4

bilekas wrote: post #2

I am very much a night owl and I have a really hard time getting into a routine of getting up early in the morning, even if I do manage to get my hours of sleep. It took a long time to find a balance of forcing to sleep and forcing to get up. But now I have to be very concious, if I have a late weekend I am out of sync for the rest of the week. People say its a lazy thing, but its really not.

Maybe it’s just the small subset of software engineers who frequent HN, but I swear 99.9% of the people on here are night owls, and they very much let their opinions be known on every thread about sleep.

You are expressing a common early-morning person condescending attitude towards night-owls.

Re: Early riser or night owl? New study may help to explain the difference

#94

Post by jjoonathan » Tue, Feb 25, 2020, 4:49 PM UTC

mFixman wrote: post #76

dijit wrote: post #39

I've been a night owl my whole life, with the exception of that period during secondary school where I was so depressed in the evenings I went to bed early and as a consequence woke up super early. I have followed every advice, meditation (1yr), excercise (3*1.5hrs per week for 18 months), staving off screens after 18:00 (8mo), no caffiene, no sugar, no food of any kind, I also tried: too much food, cooling my body d…

I had the exact opposite experience as you. I was a night owl my entire life until my last few years of college, when it got difficult. Then I was able to transition to being an early riser in a couple of weeks, and I carry that experience many years later. Waking up early does have a practical advantage: your free time is before you go to work, so then you have energy to do important things.

My energy peaks towards the end of the day, not right after I wake up. I'm a night owl so that I have energy to do important things during my free time.

Re: Early riser or night owl? New study may help to explain the difference

#95

Post by wpietri » Tue, Feb 25, 2020, 4:50 PM UTC

dijit wrote: post #39

I've been a night owl my whole life, with the exception of that period during secondary school where I was so depressed in the evenings I went to bed early and as a consequence woke up super early. I have followed every advice, meditation (1yr), excercise (3*1.5hrs per week for 18 months), staving off screens after 18:00 (8mo), no caffiene, no sugar, no food of any kind, I also tried: too much food, cooling my body d…

I made the switch. Not intentionally; it just kind of happened. I think there were a lot of things that made it work, like taking up running (in the mornings), avoiding stimulants, and good sleep hygiene. But the one that finally made the difference surprised me: it's that I'm not a responsible lightswitch user.

I built an automated lighting system such that dawn in my house comes at 6 am and gets gradually brighter. In the evening, it gradually dims, going out entirely at 10. As long as my ambient lighting is the only thing on in the evenings, I reliably go to sleep between 10 and 11 pm. But if I leave my non-automated task lighting on, I don't get sleepy until hours later, which easily can lead to me falling back into night-owl mode.

I avoid that because my mood is much less even when I'm a late riser, so I'm not advocating that anybody necessarily follow my approach. But if people do want help going to bed on time and getting up early, I strongly recommend automated ambient lighting in key rooms that mimics a natural day-night cycle (but with little or no seasonal variation).

Re: Early riser or night owl? New study may help to explain the difference

#96

Post by Non24Throw » Tue, Feb 25, 2020, 4:52 PM UTC

dijit wrote: post #39

I've been a night owl my whole life, with the exception of that period during secondary school where I was so depressed in the evenings I went to bed early and as a consequence woke up super early. I have followed every advice, meditation (1yr), excercise (3*1.5hrs per week for 18 months), staving off screens after 18:00 (8mo), no caffiene, no sugar, no food of any kind, I also tried: too much food, cooling my body d…

What you’re describing sounds similar to me years ago

Then one day I moved to a house that had no internet, and we would have to wait a month to have satellite put in, and we had no smartphones

After 20+ years of just thinking I had a sleeping disorder, losing internet access and living like a pilgrim caused my sleep schedule to naturally coincide with the setting and rising of the sun

Without any deliberate effort from myself whatsoever, I would get sleepy at like 9pm, and wake up around sunrise, wide-eyed and ready to start the day

I thought I had tried everything too, including screen limitations and so on. That probably didn’t work because just the awareness that I could go online if I wanted was enough to keep me awake, feeling like there was a party going on that I wasn’t there for. And of course I would cheat some days, and doing that even occasionally was enough to reset my progress to zero.

There’s probably some kind of “disconnection retreat” nearby you could try, where people get together in some remote place and stay off tech for 7+ days. Could be a fun way to see if this is the cause of your sleep issues.

Re: Early riser or night owl? New study may help to explain the difference

#97

Post by jjoonathan » Tue, Feb 25, 2020, 4:53 PM UTC

TheTrotters wrote: post #90

grumpy8 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You say "You've followed every advice", but what were you trying to achieve exactly? Is it that you can't fall asleep or that you're not productive in the morning, or something else? Personally what worked best for me is just to wake up at 6am for 2 weeks without nap during the day. Most people try to adjust their sleeping time to match their waking time, but they've got it backward. Set your wake up time and listen…

Counterexample: I had to wake up at 6-6:30 am Monday-Friday for over half a year. I never adjusted and was chronically sleep deprived. Chronotypes can only be bended so much.

Ditto. When I was in a warm climate with no access to air conditioning, I forced myself to follow the early bird schedule for 3 months so that I could hit the daily temperature minimum for my run. Contrary to popular mythology, not only did this fail to turn me into a paragon of virtue in all aspects of life, it robbed me of my highest productivity / highest energy free-time, which typically happens late at night.

Re: Early riser or night owl? New study may help to explain the difference

#98

Post by tzs » Tue, Feb 25, 2020, 4:53 PM UTC

I accidentally shifted from mostly night to mostly day, by starting to sleep with my curtains open. I sleep in a room with a large south facing window right near me, and a good sized east facing window not too far away.

I found that this resulted in my naturally waking up refreshed near sunrise.

I also found that I started doing segmented sleep [1], as was common in pre-industrial times. As with getting up near sunrise, this was not intentional. It just happened.

[1] https://www.webmd.com/sleep-disorders/features/what-is-segme...

Re: Early riser or night owl? New study may help to explain the difference

#99

Post by rpiguy » Tue, Feb 25, 2020, 4:54 PM UTC

dijit wrote: post #39

I've been a night owl my whole life, with the exception of that period during secondary school where I was so depressed in the evenings I went to bed early and as a consequence woke up super early. I have followed every advice, meditation (1yr), excercise (3*1.5hrs per week for 18 months), staving off screens after 18:00 (8mo), no caffiene, no sugar, no food of any kind, I also tried: too much food, cooling my body d…

Same. I am most productive 10pm-2am (thankfully earlier than you so I can actually sometimes work in my productive time and get to bed early enough to be okay in the morning).

Kids mess everything up in regard to sleep. It won't put you on a schedule :-)

Re: Early riser or night owl? New study may help to explain the difference

#100

Post by cgriswald » Tue, Feb 25, 2020, 4:55 PM UTC

dota_fanatic wrote: post #82

dijit wrote: post #39

I've been a night owl my whole life, with the exception of that period during secondary school where I was so depressed in the evenings I went to bed early and as a consequence woke up super early. I have followed every advice, meditation (1yr), excercise (3*1.5hrs per week for 18 months), staving off screens after 18:00 (8mo), no caffiene, no sugar, no food of any kind, I also tried: too much food, cooling my body d…

Cooling your body down before going to bed will have the opposite effect if your goal is to go to sleep. By cooling your body it will start to try and warm itself and trigger a stress reaction. Eating and working out before bed will similarly raise your heart rate and sympathetic nervous system activity, the opposite of what you want. Sleeping pills are also bad for sleep, ask any sleep doctor. They are great and kno…

When my sleeping issues were at their worst, having the pills knock me out for a night or two meant I felt tired the following nights and got normal sleep. And just having the pills really helped with the mental aspect. I knew that if I had a bad night it wasn’t going to turn into months long ordeal.