Think there is an illegal immigration problem in CA now? Wait until UBI.
AB2712 – California Universal Basic Income
131–140 of 207 posts
Re: AB2712 – California Universal Basic Income
#132Nothing that requires the labors of other is a "right". UBI funded by private equity is fine. UBI funded by taxes is theft and extortion.
My view on taxes is that it’s already the government’s money. Redistributive policies aren’t different in moral character from eg setting an interest rate. The most valuable thing about UBI is that it creates the conditions for a free market in labor. I can only guess that would be better for the economy than the current state of forced labor.
Why is it already the government's money?
Re: AB2712 – California Universal Basic Income
#133Nothing that requires the labors of other is a "right". UBI funded by private equity is fine. UBI funded by taxes is theft and extortion.
Hmmm, how about my right to a fair and speedy trial? That requires the labor of others, doesn’t it?
How is that, in any remote capacity, the same thing?
One is being forced to give my money to someone else for reasons of "fairness", the other is a right to not be locked up for a reasonable amount of time after being accused of a crime.
One of those involves taking my freedom, the other, my money.
Re: AB2712 – California Universal Basic Income
#134Earlier quoted context omitted.
You write as if markets are a zero sum game, however they are most certainly not. You say the poor tenant will transfer wealth to the wealthy landlord as if the tenant is losing. However -- they are both gaining. Say the rent is $1000. Obviously, the property usage right is worth to the landlord less than $1000, otherwise he would've just used the property himself. He gains. The property usage right is worth more tha…
And what about the taxpayers? They lose. I'm not necessarily opposed to wealth transfers in principle, but they absolutely are a zero sum game.
Do you have anything I can read that explains why this must be true? I dont have a natural intuition that this has to be the case, nor one that its definitely false either though.
I've always wondered if you just took billions from the richest Californians and gave that money to the poorest Californians if the people that had their money taken would actually be better of in the long run.
If you increase the amount and velocity of money going through the economy could it not be possible that the rich that had their wealth transferred actually end up better off? I suppose it would largely depend on where the taken capitol had been invested and or if it was just sitting in low yield savings accounts.
Re: AB2712 – California Universal Basic Income
#135Good - let's have a real world test and see whether there is something behind UBI as a concept. And perhaps this'll be the first program to survive the trolls and nay-sayers who will find the smallest niche failures and sspout the "If ANYONE falls through the cracks it's a FAILURE!"
Good - let's have a real world test and see whether there is something behind UBI as a concept. Finland did a real world UBI test. Unless you don't consider Finland part of the "real world."
Didn't Finland also tell the recipients ahead of time when the test would be ending? I know if I was told, "We're doing a UBI test for 2 years, you'll get 1k a month, no strings attached", I wouldn't quick working. I'd just pocket the free money since I know it's going to dry up at at a fixed date. If they said "Here's 1k a month forever, no strings attached", I'd sell my house and move to a low CoLA area where I could live off the 1k and persue other interests.
Re: AB2712 – California Universal Basic Income
#136Can they not do basic math? There are around 30 mil adults in California. Even if provision 18992.1 (b) is 5 mil people, that's still 25 mil people. That's 25 mil * $12,000 = $300 bil a year. The ENTIRE California state budget for 2020 is only $220 bil. They would have to more than double the tax revenue for a state with already very high taxes. Now, assuming the most generous interpretation of their 10% VAT proposal…
Boy, I already pay some of the highest taxes in the country and now I get to pay more. For what? They cannot manage anything else properly in this state.
Why, you will pay $22,000 more to get your $12,000 in basic income.
:)
Re: AB2712 – California Universal Basic Income
#137Earlier quoted context omitted.
They are not dense. Not by any measure. Show me a statistic that shows that the Bay Area is dense in comparison to anywhere else in the world. I am so sick of people make such incredibly inaccurate statements about density and housing.
>Not by any measure. Person per mile squared? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_b...
This is only the United States. You are talking about problems in the United States and comparing them to other cities in the United States most of which have the same problem. Its worth mentioning also that San Francisco city proper is a tiny area and not remotely reflective of the Bay Area. It has 800K people in an area with almost 8 million people.
For comparison's sake. Seoul, South Korea has 40K people per square mile (total population of 8 million people). That is the entire city. Overcrowded San Francisco city proper has 17K people per square mile and it is by far the most dense part of the Bay Area.
Re: AB2712 – California Universal Basic Income
#138Earlier quoted context omitted.
It doesn't exclude medicaid, that's a federal program. These are the programs it excludes: > Medi-Cal program, the County Medical Services Program, the CalFresh program, the CalWORKs program, or Unemployment Insurance I'm not entirely sure why, though.
Probably because those benefits already have a value higher than the UBI.
Private insurance doesnt cost $12000/year, so I doubt medical does.
Re: AB2712 – California Universal Basic Income
#139The worse the better I say, as long as it doesn't spill over into other states. The long suffering CA taxpayer will wake up en masse one day, and sweep this bullshit aside, at which point CA might become livable again.
Re: AB2712 – California Universal Basic Income
#140Good - let's have a real world test and see whether there is something behind UBI as a concept. And perhaps this'll be the first program to survive the trolls and nay-sayers who will find the smallest niche failures and sspout the "If ANYONE falls through the cracks it's a FAILURE!"
Wikipedia has a list of various basic income pilot programs reaching back to the 1960s: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_income_pilots