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AB2712 – California Universal Basic Income

leginfo.legislature.ca.gov

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Re: AB2712 – California Universal Basic Income

#121

Post by throwawayhhakdl »

oDot wrote: post #80
nradov wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And what about the taxpayers? They lose. I'm not necessarily opposed to wealth transfers in principle, but they absolutely are a zero sum game.

I was talking about the voluntary transaction part, not the taxing part, which is not voluntary in any way.

Housing is an essential. You can’t just go homeless without significant consequences. That’s not “voluntary”. Just moving somewhere else is not always viable.

To prove an extreme case, if I point a gun at you and say “$1k or I shoot”, you’re likely to pay. You gained not dying, but are you richer? Or did I merely use my power to impose an urgent need on you that you needed to pay for?

Re: AB2712 – California Universal Basic Income

#122

Post by oDot »

_2d30 wrote: post #103
oDot wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You write as if markets are a zero sum game, however they are most certainly not. You say the poor tenant will transfer wealth to the wealthy landlord as if the tenant is losing. However -- they are both gaining. Say the rent is $1000. Obviously, the property usage right is worth to the landlord less than $1000, otherwise he would've just used the property himself. He gains. The property usage right is worth more tha…

Redistribution is zero-sum by definition.

Yes, I was not talking about the UBI part, but the voluntary transaction part.

Re: AB2712 – California Universal Basic Income

#123

Post by reaperducer »

hedora wrote: post #27
Aloha wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is only a couple percent more than existing sales tax

Current sales tax is ~7.5%. Sales + VAT will be 17.5%, right?

Alameda County sales tax is currently 9.75%. So 19.75% with VAT.

Re: AB2712 – California Universal Basic Income

#124

Post by KorematsuFred »

dessant wrote: post #54
infecto wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Boy, I already pay some of the highest taxes in the country and now I get to pay more. For what? They cannot manage anything else properly in this state.

What percentage of your income goes to taxes? In the EU almost half of your income would be withheld for different taxes, and depending on the country, you would also get absymal health care, with a system that forces you to pay out of pocket, after a part of your salary was already taken to pay for universal health care.

Compared to EU California is indeed a heaven. Not kidding. Half of the startups in SV for example will not even bother to start given EU regulatory compliance.

Re: AB2712 – California Universal Basic Income

#125

Post by aidenn0 »

dessant wrote: post #54
infecto wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Boy, I already pay some of the highest taxes in the country and now I get to pay more. For what? They cannot manage anything else properly in this state.

What percentage of your income goes to taxes? In the EU almost half of your income would be withheld for different taxes, and depending on the country, you would also get absymal health care, with a system that forces you to pay out of pocket, after a part of your salary was already taken to pay for universal health care.

About 1/3 of your salary goes to taxes as a CA resident making 6 figures. In addition there are payroll taxes, but those are taken out before you salary; not sure if the EU does things like that.

Note that in the US, Government expenditures on healthcare are higher than in the average EU country, yet a much smaller fraction of the population get government provided healthcare.

Re: AB2712 – California Universal Basic Income

#126

Post by pmoriarty »

My main problem with this is that if you're poor you'll have to give up Medi-Cal (California's Medicaid program -- aka health insurance for the poor) and other state-funded benefits to be eligible.

Health care spending can and has bankrupted many people with private insurance who are very well off compared to Medi-Cal recipients, so if the poor were forced to give up Medi-Cal to get $12k of UBI per year, and then spend that money on private health insurance, and spend even more of that money on food (since they'd also have to give up food stamps), it makes absolutely no economic sense for them to do that.

As far as the poor are concerned, this is an attempt to get rid of Medi-Cal and substitute it with private health insurance, and same with the other state-funded programs that help the poor.

The way it stands now this is an awful idea, and I'd only support it if it was truly universal and did not require the poor to give up the state support they have now.

If this proposed program doesn't actually help the poor then what is the fucking point?

Re: AB2712 – California Universal Basic Income

#127

Post by SkyBelow »

danhak wrote: post #38
exabrial wrote: post #36

Nothing that requires the labors of other is a "right". UBI funded by private equity is fine. UBI funded by taxes is theft and extortion.

Hmmm, how about my right to a fair and speedy trial? That requires the labor of others, doesn’t it?

It is a cost that the government has to provide you if they want to try you. Put another way, it is saying the government has the right to try someone only if they can provide a fair and speedy trial (with lawyers for those who can't afford one). If they cannot provide this, they cannot try you for a crime. Thus, by choosing to try someone, they consent to the payment required to provide these services.

At least in theory, this does not involve you receiving someone else's labor without their consent.

Re: AB2712 – California Universal Basic Income

#128

Post by ac29 »

dessant wrote: post #54
infecto wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Boy, I already pay some of the highest taxes in the country and now I get to pay more. For what? They cannot manage anything else properly in this state.

What percentage of your income goes to taxes? In the EU almost half of your income would be withheld for different taxes, and depending on the country, you would also get absymal health care, with a system that forces you to pay out of pocket, after a part of your salary was already taken to pay for universal health care.

The top tax bracket in CA would require you to make well over $1M for a married couple: a rate of 37% federal + 13.3% state. But depending on your definition of "almost half", this could be much lower - a combined rate of 41.3% starts at about $325k for a couple. These are income taxes only, mandatory medicare and social security taxes add a bit more.

Re: AB2712 – California Universal Basic Income

#129

Post by shitsucka »

dessant wrote: post #54
infecto wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Boy, I already pay some of the highest taxes in the country and now I get to pay more. For what? They cannot manage anything else properly in this state.

What percentage of your income goes to taxes? In the EU almost half of your income would be withheld for different taxes, and depending on the country, you would also get absymal health care, with a system that forces you to pay out of pocket, after a part of your salary was already taken to pay for universal health care.

My effective federal+state rate in CA is 38%, not including the 9% sales tax.

Re: AB2712 – California Universal Basic Income

#130

Post by randyrand »

dev_hacker wrote: post #113

There is no hope of something like this passing in the US. If it doesn't disenfranchise at least a few hated social groups its flat out un-American and the people won't stand for it. Fuck over felons, recent immigrants, black people, or someone like this and you might have a chance of getting it through. I'll grant you that California is its own weird little world, so yeah maybe its possible there, but for sure this…

> Fuck over felons, recent immigrants, black people, or someone like this and you might have a chance of getting it through.

This is surprising to me. Which recent california laws are you referring to that have done this?

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