Live data from Hacker News

Mathematics for the Adventurous Self-Learner

neilwithdata.com

161–170 of 216 posts

Re: Mathematics for the Adventurous Self-Learner

#161

I recently had the experience of taking my first graduate-level probability course. It assumed quite a strong familiarity with real/complex analysis, and I suffered quite heavily. Something of note was that once I finally managed to "peel back" the analysis, the underlying intuition made a lot of sense for the simplest cases in probability (e.g. hypothesis testing between two normal distributions is a matter of figur…

In my opinion, the issue here is notation and a bit more. I did about eight years of college in math, changed paths, changed careers, changed careers again to ML/DL research, and now will finish a CS undergrad degree this month.

I put it in context because it's not quite a direct comparison since I have been in greatly different situations and ages between studying math and CS, but putting that aside, I have to say I have greatly enjoyed the computer science means of teaching more than math, doubly when it comes to self-learning. Concepts in math are generally taught entwined with the means of proving those ideas. That's important if you're a grad student looking to be a math researcher, but (IMO) it is not so great if you're a newer student or learning on your own and trying to grasp the concept and big picture. A proof of a theorem can be (and too often is) a lot of detail that really doesn't help you grasp the concept the theorem provides or is used towards, often because it involves other ideas and techniques from higher levels or just different types of math, both of which are out of the scope of the student learning the topic. Worse yet, it is standard for a proof to be written almost backwards from how it would be thought out. Anyone from a math educational background has the experience in homework of solving a problem, then rewriting it almost in total reverse to be in the proper form to submit. This means not only is the proof of the theorem not useful towards conceptual understanding, reading the proof doesn't show you chronologically how you would discover it yourself. That is a lot of overhead cost to break through to get to real understanding, real learning. As you mention, notation as well is another thing you need to break through.

I have found computer science and related classes to be taught more constructively. Concept is given first, and then your job as student learner is to construct it. Coming from the ML field, I love comparing math and CS proofs of topics here. Explanations from CS people of back propagation, for example, are always visual, and books/courses will have you construct a class and methods to do the calculations. Someone with a bit of programming knowledge can follow along in their language of choice. Math explanations get into a ton of notation from Calc 3+, and it's going to take a lot of playing around and frustration to get a working system out of the explanation. Even the derivation section on Wikipedia is not something most people will understand and be able to turn into useful output.

The more I see other ways concepts are taught, the more I wish math had been taught a different way. There is a lot to break through in order to get to real understanding, just by the way it's formed and taught.

Re: Mathematics for the Adventurous Self-Learner

#162
post #136
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm studying for a Math BSc with the OU and I think their books are great. They are designed for 100% self-study and are polished over the years. The range of topics in level 1 math courses such as MST124 or MST125 is huge, while keeping the appropriate level of difficulty.

Are you in the current presentation of either 124 or 125 by any chance? I'm in both, planning to do the BSc too.

I'm actually finishing M208 Pure Math this week. It's been great.

Re: Mathematics for the Adventurous Self-Learner

#163
post #153
post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hope I'm not too late here, but if you are in the US I would highly, highly recommend signing up for developmental classes at your local community college. You are exactly whom those classes are for. If you've tried on your own before and struggled to stay motivated, doing it in a structured way, in 15 week "sprints", may be just the kickstart to your self-study program you need. Disclaimer: I was a full-time commu…

Seconding this. After high school, I worked in industry until I got bored, and went back to school starting with community college. I'd never thought I was good at math, and I placed into pre-college algebra. Programming had taught me to think methodically, so I crushed those early classes. Fast-forward a decade; I've got a PhD in math (nothing like what I set out to do; I just followed my passion).

That is extremely inspiring. Can you speak more to how you went from industry to a community college to getting into and completing a PhD program? Did you quit your job to return back to school? What area did you end up specializing in and what do you do now?

Re: Mathematics for the Adventurous Self-Learner

#164
post #125
post #6

I know this is going to be the case for likely nobody, but I have browsed most of the self-study math threads that pop up here as a forever-on-my-todo-list thing and I have a remark to make: I have yet to find a guide that does not start with the assumption that you graduated highschool. That is a very reasonable assumption to make. We are in a community of technology and engineering, it would be a bit ridiculous to…

I hope I'm not too late here, but if you are in the US I would highly, highly recommend signing up for developmental classes at your local community college. You are exactly whom those classes are for. If you've tried on your own before and struggled to stay motivated, doing it in a structured way, in 15 week "sprints", may be just the kickstart to your self-study program you need. Disclaimer: I was a full-time commu…

I'd also like to chime in with support for community college math classes. I was pretty good at math to the point that it was becoming a problem for my JR High, so they sent me to the community college to take the math series starting from the bottom up. Went all the way through Differential Equations at community college.

Maybe an even better way to start would be with trying to take a math class during the summer semester. 8 weeks of intense study to kick things off. I bet after doing some programming algebra would be a breeze.

Re: Mathematics for the Adventurous Self-Learner

#165
post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hope I'm not too late here, but if you are in the US I would highly, highly recommend signing up for developmental classes at your local community college. You are exactly whom those classes are for. If you've tried on your own before and struggled to stay motivated, doing it in a structured way, in 15 week "sprints", may be just the kickstart to your self-study program you need. Disclaimer: I was a full-time commu…

Might want to ask current students about those classes first. My experience with community college math developmental classes was: "Go to this AV room, watch these videos, do these workbooks. If you have questions, I have office hours on these days.". Which was terrible. I did have someone I could come to with things I didn't understand, but it was obviously not something they liked doing and you had little choice ab…

Holy crap! I wonder if it's a rural vs. metro area thing. Our CC was definitely classroom work- again, decades ago.

Re: Mathematics for the Adventurous Self-Learner

#166
post #153
post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hope I'm not too late here, but if you are in the US I would highly, highly recommend signing up for developmental classes at your local community college. You are exactly whom those classes are for. If you've tried on your own before and struggled to stay motivated, doing it in a structured way, in 15 week "sprints", may be just the kickstart to your self-study program you need. Disclaimer: I was a full-time commu…

Seconding this. After high school, I worked in industry until I got bored, and went back to school starting with community college. I'd never thought I was good at math, and I placed into pre-college algebra. Programming had taught me to think methodically, so I crushed those early classes. Fast-forward a decade; I've got a PhD in math (nothing like what I set out to do; I just followed my passion).

You, seriously, just made my day!

Re: Mathematics for the Adventurous Self-Learner

#167
post #6

I know this is going to be the case for likely nobody, but I have browsed most of the self-study math threads that pop up here as a forever-on-my-todo-list thing and I have a remark to make: I have yet to find a guide that does not start with the assumption that you graduated highschool. That is a very reasonable assumption to make. We are in a community of technology and engineering, it would be a bit ridiculous to…

> Also, curse the Greeks for not using more idiomatic variables. ∑ would never pass code review, what an entirely unreadable identifier

One thing I tell my high-school students: mathematics always looks harder than it actually is. One of the essential skills in succeeding in math is looking at a page of arcane "stuff" and having your reaction be, "Whoa! Can't wait to learn what this means," rather than, "Whoa! This looks so complicated!"

Mathematical is its own language that has developed across continents and millennia. It has its quirks and foibles, but overall, community consensus has guided its notation. Mathematicians want things to be simple and "make sense", especially the notation they use. It's never as terrible as it looks.

Sigma specifically is a Greek letter, but the notation is not Greek. Like a large amount of modern mathematical notation, the convention came from Leonhard Euler in the 18th century. It was a disambiguation choice because the letter S was overloaded.

Single-symbol identifiers are enormously popular in mathematics because mathematics is not computing. Because math is (even now) essentially a handwritten subject, its design plays to the strengths of handwriting. Line size, height, and character layout are essentially freeform. Character accents and modifiers are easy. discrete_sum would never fly in a handwritten world, just like ∑ wouldn't pass code review.

Re: Mathematics for the Adventurous Self-Learner

#168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm in the same shoes, and as ridiculous as it sounds but I've been in programming (self-taught) for 10 years now without an especially good knowledge of math. I've been slacking in HS on math classes, despite the fact that I loved math and was really good once I sat to listen, practice and understand the material. Also, I'm painfully aware of the fact that my math is really bad and that I'm missing on utilizing it i…

What is an example where you missed mathematical knowledge to do your job? Honestly curious, I never needed any math during programming for my job.

Yeah, I always think I "should" brush back up on my now-rusted-solid math skills—I doubt I could pass the final for any math class I took past maybe 9th grade without studying, let alone anything I took in college—but they've rusted for a reason. I never fucking use them. If I do it's some narrow little thing that I look up, do, then never look at again.

[EDIT] and then there's "what is math?". The memorization from early grades that everyone shits on, with some simple algebra, is what I actually, ever, use in my life, plus some very basic geometry when doing stuff around the house. If it's for work it's some practical application thing. "Real" math like proofs? Never, ever.

Re: Mathematics for the Adventurous Self-Learner

#169
post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seconding this. After high school, I worked in industry until I got bored, and went back to school starting with community college. I'd never thought I was good at math, and I placed into pre-college algebra. Programming had taught me to think methodically, so I crushed those early classes. Fast-forward a decade; I've got a PhD in math (nothing like what I set out to do; I just followed my passion).

That is extremely inspiring. Can you speak more to how you went from industry to a community college to getting into and completing a PhD program? Did you quit your job to return back to school? What area did you end up specializing in and what do you do now?

Long and short, I got sick of the tedium in web development, quit my job and went back to school. The dot-com bubble had just burst, and I had been taking occasional classes including a very inspirational data structures course which planted the seed with formal proofs.

After I went back to school, I tutored in the math study center to pay the bills, which really helped cement not just the learning but also the notion that I could survive academia. I'd gone in with a plan to study engineering, but after I transferred to university, I kept dawdling on the math prerequisites and not taking the engineering courses that needed them. So it kinda gradually dawned on me that math was what I loved, and away I went.

I never strayed too far from computers. I'm a graph theorist, specializing in computation; had I known better I'd have gone into computer science because that's where I see the most progress being made.

Re: Mathematics for the Adventurous Self-Learner

#170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is an example where you missed mathematical knowledge to do your job? Honestly curious, I never needed any math during programming for my job.

Now I'm curious. IANAProgrammer, what programs have you made that don't have any maths in them? Can you share example code? I can't see how that works.

It would be easier to show example code that actually used math! I might use math once a year, or every few years. Someone can write standard enterprise REST/SQL endpoints for ages and never use a bit of the stuff.
Post reply on HN