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Why Open Source misses the point of Free Software

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Re: Why Open Source misses the point of Free Software

#81

Post by tzs »

tzs wrote: post #77

My problem with Free Software as opposed to Open Source is that Free Software people have a greater tendency to end up doing things like this: http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.distributions.gnu-linux-... (The whole thread, not just the specific post linked to).

OK, my other problem with Free Software is when Free Software proponents try to tell me that GPL is more free than BSD because GPL stops the software from becoming part of non-free software.

It's like saying people in the US are more free than those in the EU, because the US restricts travel to non-free Cuba.

Re: Why Open Source misses the point of Free Software

#82

Post by dwc »

SwellJoe wrote: post #64
dwc wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, there's "freedom" again, considered only from one perspective. What about the freedom of someone to make their own work available as closed source? What about when it's a derived work that adds novel new functionality? The FSF is against the freedom to do this, because it promotes other freedoms they like better. What if my important set of freedoms isn't a perfect fit with theirs? What if some random users' impo…

No one is saying you must do anything. No one is demanding you to release your software under an open or free software license. I'm simply saying I would like for a culture of learning and sharing to remain strong and vibrant going forward. You're making this into an ideological flame war, without reason. I haven't demanded anything of you or the software you create. I have suggested that a vibrant and thriving open…

I really don't want this to be a flame war. I want a culture or sharing and learning, too. I think that culture and community are by far the most important. Since we've at a point where we largely agree, I'll take it as a good point to stop.

Re: Why Open Source misses the point of Free Software

#83

Post by bad_user »

emilsedgh wrote: post #4
aniket_ray wrote: post #3

I'm not a big fan on GPL anymore. When I create some software I prefer the user of my software to have all freedoms including the freedom to embed it in closed source software.

Its not about gpl vs. bsd-like licenses. Its about free software vs. open source software. bsd-like licenses are still 'free'.

Wouldn't you hate it if you did something, like giving money to a poor fellow, and then people are using your good deed to market their ideology (like communism perhaps); even though you think it's wrong?

Now imagine how some open-source authors feel.

Re: Why Open Source misses the point of Free Software

#84

Post by wvenable »

dwc wrote: post #78
wvenable wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depends on how you define "open". For Stallman, one of the main goals of free software is the ability to get into your software and be able to fix bugs and port it to other platforms -- it all started with RMS getting stuck with a proprietary printer driver. All that BSD code that's been taken, extended, modified and used in proprietary products is no longer open. You can't get into OS X and fix bugs or port it to…

You are correct: the original code (and ongoing work based on it) is still open, and Apple, et al, versions are not. This is fine. First and most importantly, because the desire to share code with BSD comes with no strings attached. It's just the desire to share. You don't have to have the same beliefs and priorities as I do in order to use my code. I believe in freedom enough to give you all the freedoms to do as yo…

> This is fine.

But not for RMS since it doesn't address the founding concern of the FSF! You sort of glossed over that. If you write BSD code, and it gets put into OS X, your ability to tinker with your own code in that context is gone.

I don't think you can clearly claim one license here is more free than the other -- they're both securing different kinds of freedom.

Re: Why Open Source misses the point of Free Software

#85

Post by jarin »

krschultz wrote: post #51

With a BSD or Apache license you are giving your project away for anyone to use how they see fit. With GPL you are giving your project away only to those willing to work with you on improving it. The arguments back and forth are so tiresome when they don't recognize that sometimes one license makes a lot of sense and sometimes the other license makes a lot of sense. There will never be one license to rule them all.

Exactly, I've always argued that Free Software is best for infrastructure and developer tools, and Open Source is best for everything else (like libraries for end user software).

Re: Why Open Source misses the point of Free Software

#86

Post by jarin »

adolfojp wrote: post #65
EGreg wrote: post #20

If they only called it Liberating Software, they wouldn't have had this happen. After all, open source software is also free (as in, costs nothing). But liberating software sounds like it confers freedom on the person -- actually liberating them. Remember, branding is important.

I vote for Freedom Software. It has a nice ring to it and it removes the ambiguity.

Then we can change it back to French Software later.

Re: Why Open Source misses the point of Free Software

#87

Post by brudgers »

mkr-hn wrote: post #62
brudgers wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The volume of books on open source tools is more a function of the number of such tools. For any given tool or language, there may be very few books in print. Amazon has 12 books for "LLVM". [ http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dst... ] There are over 1500 for "Visual Studio" [ http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dst... ] 343 books for "Django" [includes the musician] v. 154…

What does the volume of books have to do with anything? You seemed to indicate that you didn't think books were available for open source tools, but they do exist. What exactly are you looking for that isn't available?

One of "the benefits of Microsoft Press" and MSDN is the scale at which the documentation ecosystem operates. It's not a matter of finding a book, but rather of finding the right book.

Re: Why Open Source misses the point of Free Software

#88

Post by mkr-hn »

brudgers wrote: post #87
mkr-hn wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does the volume of books have to do with anything? You seemed to indicate that you didn't think books were available for open source tools, but they do exist. What exactly are you looking for that isn't available?

One of "the benefits of Microsoft Press" and MSDN is the scale at which the documentation ecosystem operates. It's not a matter of finding a book, but rather of finding the right book.

I'm just trying to think of an open source tool where a comprehensive book (online or off) or some sort of documentation isn't available. Can you give an example of what kind of book you were looking for?

Re: Why Open Source misses the point of Free Software

#89

Post by dwc »

rwl wrote: post #74
dwc wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, there's "freedom" again, considered only from one perspective. What about the freedom of someone to make their own work available as closed source? What about when it's a derived work that adds novel new functionality? The FSF is against the freedom to do this, because it promotes other freedoms they like better. What if my important set of freedoms isn't a perfect fit with theirs? What if some random users' impo…

This argument doesn't work. Promoting "freedom," with respect to software or anything else, is always about promoting some specific freedoms at the expense of others. Copyleft licenses make a different set of tradeoffs than BSD-style licenses, it's true. But that doesn't mean that BSD-style licenses are "objectively" more free. They simply promote certain freedoms of programmers who are one step downstream from the s…

I'm afraid the argument does work. The GPL adds many more restrictions to the recipient of code than does BSD. It's really that simple. The only restriction BSD places on the recipient is to retain the copyright and license notice.

But I don't think I'm going to get this point across. Not while "freedom" is taken to mean something other than the dictionary definition.

Re: Why Open Source misses the point of Free Software

#90

Post by gte910h »

Free software people continually miss the value of just letting people use their stuff to do whatever.

Letting people put back patches if they want to, but otherwise do what the hell they feel like is powerful, useful and practical for many more applications than the GPL et al licenses.

Some of us like sharing, but also like selling software and not giving away the source.

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