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Why Open Source misses the point of Free Software

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Re: Why Open Source misses the point of Free Software

#21

Post by EGreg »

SwellJoe wrote: post #10
hasenj wrote: post #2

Or, why Free Software misses the point of Open Source :) Open Source is about the developers. Free Software is about the end users (or, it's supposed to be). In reality, Free Software ends up being useful only for programmers, hackers, technical people, and well, institutions which require programmers, hackers and technical people to run and grow their infrastructure (such as Universities and Governments). Free Softw…

"Open Source is about the developers. Free Software is about the end users (or, it's supposed to be)." In an ideal world, the user and the developer are one in the same. I don't mean everyone who uses a piece of software should have to know the code intimately; merely that they should have the freedom to see it, modify it and learn from it, should the need or desire arise. The power of the Free Software movement is t…

This is true, but I would also like to point out how many people became web developers because they could look at the source code being fed to the browser -- through its View Source menu item. That menu item alone made website code basically open source (very few websites obfuscated it). You could see HTML, CSS and Javascript out in the open.

Certainly, free software is a grand revolution in the principles that guide innovation, and protect people's use of the software. But the game is won often by making better tools to actually make the open source happen. Look at git and github. Look at the practical system set up by linux developers before git. Look at wikipedia and the wiki. I could go on.

I have a big respect for the ability of better tools to change people's behavior patterns and habits, and over time change the world.

Re: Why Open Source misses the point of Free Software

#22

Post by noibl »

hasenj wrote: post #2

Or, why Free Software misses the point of Open Source :) Open Source is about the developers. Free Software is about the end users (or, it's supposed to be). In reality, Free Software ends up being useful only for programmers, hackers, technical people, and well, institutions which require programmers, hackers and technical people to run and grow their infrastructure (such as Universities and Governments). Free Softw…

As he admits, "Open source is a development methodology; free software is a social movement." A comparison of the two is apples-to-oranges.

Re: Why Open Source misses the point of Free Software

#23

Post by EGreg »

SwellJoe wrote: post #19
brudgers wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "In an ideal world, the user and the developer are one in the same." My vision of utopia does not include helping my mother debug her cell phone - explaining gmail is bad enough.

You've taken that quote out of context, as the next sentence dispels your fear of having to help your mother debug her cell phone. But, to answer that particular argument: It can't help the previous generation in any notable way. That ship has sailed. But, the next generation can be more capable than the current one, assuming we pass on the tools they need and a culture of learning and sharing discoveries. So, don't…

I think that in the future, I wouldn't expect everyone's kids to be know enough to provide patches for software they use. Rather, there has to be a responsive community of developers around the product, with a good TOOL (like a bug tracker) which the kids could use to report a bug and anther TOOL to capture the bug in the app and send the extra info.

While everyone would have the freedom to contribute patches, most people aren't going to be educated along this line, or know the product very well. It is the tools that we must improve, although the principles of software freedom enforced in the GPL help protect people.

Re: Why Open Source misses the point of Free Software

#24

Post by cookiecaper »

Stallman's insistence on unlimited and unrestricted redistribution at a price not exceeding cost is the critical flaw with the free software movement. While I agree that this is good and should be encouraged where possible, if there were a license or some support for persons that allowed access to and modification of the code and redistribution of the code only to persons who were appropriately licensed by the copyright owner, then I think we'd have a much better ecosystem here.

Everyone would weld the hoods of their cars shut if leaving it open meant they had to give the car away for free. Since it doesn't, most people are free to access the internals of their vehicles and do whatever they like. The same principle should apply to software -- if we make it reasonably easy for people to leave the hood open but still make some money, there'd be more freedom to go around for everyone.

Re: Why Open Source misses the point of Free Software

#25

Post by sp332 »

hasenj wrote: post #2

Or, why Free Software misses the point of Open Source :) Open Source is about the developers. Free Software is about the end users (or, it's supposed to be). In reality, Free Software ends up being useful only for programmers, hackers, technical people, and well, institutions which require programmers, hackers and technical people to run and grow their infrastructure (such as Universities and Governments). Free Softw…

In the Free Software model, there's no such thing as an end-user. Everyone gets to be a developer (for themselves or their friends). That's why it's so developer-friendly.

Re: Why Open Source misses the point of Free Software

#26

Post by dwc »

SwellJoe wrote: post #19
brudgers wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "In an ideal world, the user and the developer are one in the same." My vision of utopia does not include helping my mother debug her cell phone - explaining gmail is bad enough.

You've taken that quote out of context, as the next sentence dispels your fear of having to help your mother debug her cell phone. But, to answer that particular argument: It can't help the previous generation in any notable way. That ship has sailed. But, the next generation can be more capable than the current one, assuming we pass on the tools they need and a culture of learning and sharing discoveries. So, don't…

> You've taken that quote out of context, as the next sentence dispels your fear of having to help your mother debug her cell phone.

If the next sentence dispels that fear, then the quoted sentence is wrong, and should have been left out altogether. And so it is.

This is perhaps the biggest fail of the Free Software movement: co-opting a word, phrase or sentence to fill people with idealistic notions that do not represent what GNU and the FSF are really about. This begins with "Free" which translates into rules and restrictions. If you want truly free, there's public domain or BSD-style licenses. GNU/FSF have goals other than true freedom, and they believe strongly in those goals. Many agree with them. I think everyone would be better served saying what they really stand for, starting with changing the name of the FSF.

Re: Why Open Source misses the point of Free Software

#27

Post by dwc »

SwellJoe wrote: post #6
aniket_ray wrote: post #3

I'm not a big fan on GPL anymore. When I create some software I prefer the user of my software to have all freedoms including the freedom to embed it in closed source software.

And I prefer my software to remain open no matter who works on it or distributes it. So, I use GPL. Amazing how people can have different priorities and different beliefs. (And, amazing how one can abuse the word "free" or "open" in either case to mean two very different things.)

> And I prefer my software to remain open no matter who works on it or distributes it. So, I use GPL.

BSD license accomplishes that just fine. BSD licensed code has been taken, extended, modified and used in proprietary products for decades, and yet the original contribution remains open.

I think that what you object to is that someone can take your code and make money using it in a closed source project, perhaps modifying it in the process. If that makes you unhappy then GPL will serve your desires better.

But saying a BSD license won't keep your code open is not true. It may seem like a nit, but it's one that matters.

Re: Why Open Source misses the point of Free Software

#28

Post by brudgers »

SwellJoe wrote: post #19
brudgers wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "In an ideal world, the user and the developer are one in the same." My vision of utopia does not include helping my mother debug her cell phone - explaining gmail is bad enough.

You've taken that quote out of context, as the next sentence dispels your fear of having to help your mother debug her cell phone. But, to answer that particular argument: It can't help the previous generation in any notable way. That ship has sailed. But, the next generation can be more capable than the current one, assuming we pass on the tools they need and a culture of learning and sharing discoveries. So, don't…

Don't misunderstand me, copyleft is a good approach in certain contexts. On the other hand, MSDN is far more informative than source code comments, a half-hearted Wiki and a snide support forum for the non-professional programmer which populates your ideal world.

Re: Why Open Source misses the point of Free Software

#29

Post by SwellJoe »

dwc wrote: post #26
SwellJoe wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've taken that quote out of context, as the next sentence dispels your fear of having to help your mother debug her cell phone. But, to answer that particular argument: It can't help the previous generation in any notable way. That ship has sailed. But, the next generation can be more capable than the current one, assuming we pass on the tools they need and a culture of learning and sharing discoveries. So, don't…

> You've taken that quote out of context, as the next sentence dispels your fear of having to help your mother debug her cell phone. If the next sentence dispels that fear, then the quoted sentence is wrong, and should have been left out altogether. And so it is. This is perhaps the biggest fail of the Free Software movement: co-opting a word, phrase or sentence to fill people with idealistic notions that do not repr…

"If the next sentence dispels that fear, then the quoted sentence is wrong, and should have been left out altogether. And so it is."

Sometimes, a thought or concept requires more than one sentence to express.

Re: Why Open Source misses the point of Free Software

#30

Post by stephth »

kiba wrote: post #7
aniket_ray wrote: post #3

I'm not a big fan on GPL anymore. When I create some software I prefer the user of my software to have all freedoms including the freedom to embed it in closed source software.

I stopped caring and made my software public domain. Incidentally, nothing really happens until you become popular.

As far as I understand it, the problem with public domain is it's not a license, but a meaning, and this meaning varies between countries. A completely permissive license (if well written) could be more permissive than PD in some parts of the world, since it's specific.
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