Why Open Source misses the point of Free Software • Hacker News Board

Re: Why Open Source misses the point of Free Software

#11

Post by _delirium » Sat, Feb 19, 2011, 6:14 PM UTC

emilsedgh wrote: post #4

aniket_ray wrote: post #3

I'm not a big fan on GPL anymore. When I create some software I prefer the user of my software to have all freedoms including the freedom to embed it in closed source software.

Its not about gpl vs. bsd-like licenses. Its about free software vs. open source software. bsd-like licenses are still 'free'.

GPL-like licenses are still 'open' by OSI standards as well. So yeah, the permissive-license v. copyleft argument isn't the same one as the Free v. Open argument, though perhaps there's some correlation between what views people have on each one.

Re: Why Open Source misses the point of Free Software

#12

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Feb 19, 2011, 6:18 PM UTC

hasenj wrote: post #2

Or, why Free Software misses the point of Open Source :) Open Source is about the developers. Free Software is about the end users (or, it's supposed to be). In reality, Free Software ends up being useful only for programmers, hackers, technical people, and well, institutions which require programmers, hackers and technical people to run and grow their infrastructure (such as Universities and Governments). Free Softw…

[deleted]

Re: Why Open Source misses the point of Free Software

#13

Post by zzzeek » Sat, Feb 19, 2011, 6:20 PM UTC

bhickey wrote: post #5

aniket_ray wrote: post #3

I'm not a big fan on GPL anymore. When I create some software I prefer the user of my software to have all freedoms including the freedom to embed it in closed source software.

Can you articulate your concern? Are you specifically objecting to the 'tivoisation' clause of the GPLv3, or has your opinion on the GPL changed, or something else? The spirit that you seem to describe is, I believe, embodied by the LGPLv2 (minus the clause that allows you to convert LGPL -> GPL.)

I've been warned on many occasions that the LGPL is not trusted to cover dynamic languages like Python very well since its verbiage is specific to C linkers and compilers.

Re: Why Open Source misses the point of Free Software

#14

Post by protomyth » Sat, Feb 19, 2011, 6:23 PM UTC

SwellJoe wrote: post #6

aniket_ray wrote: post #3

I'm not a big fan on GPL anymore. When I create some software I prefer the user of my software to have all freedoms including the freedom to embed it in closed source software.

And I prefer my software to remain open no matter who works on it or distributes it. So, I use GPL. Amazing how people can have different priorities and different beliefs. (And, amazing how one can abuse the word "free" or "open" in either case to mean two very different things.)

> amazing how one can abuse the word "free" or "open" in > either case to mean two very different things

It seems to happen a lot in technology and the naming of bills in congress. It has got to the point where I start to ignore the words.

"Net Neutrality" is the latest phrase that has a lot of meanings depending on who you talk to, but has no actual technical or judicial meaning. I could accept a technical definition that has a meaning, but not this two word label that doesn't. For example, if I said "I was against port blocking or banning protocols except by the end user", it has some meaning.

My definition of these weasel words (tis a shame open and free are among them) is if someone says the phrase "I support X" and it gives me no real knowledge of their actual beliefs.

Re: Why Open Source misses the point of Free Software

#15

Post by dedward » Sat, Feb 19, 2011, 6:23 PM UTC

aniket_ray wrote: post #3

I'm not a big fan on GPL anymore. When I create some software I prefer the user of my software to have all freedoms including the freedom to embed it in closed source software.

Agreed. The cool thing about being the copyright holder is you are free to release things under as few or as many different terms as you want.

I personally prefer to release software under the GPL initially, and then release under other licenses if I want to allow usage in those ways the GPL doesn't permit. Maybe that's a commercial deal with someone, maybe it's just changing the license to bsd, or maybe just making it public domain.

What I can't stand are holy wars about licenses and this whole church of "GPL means you have to give back"... or anyone talking about the "spirit" of these projects. Copyright is copyright, and licenses are licenses, and if someone wants to do a project with multiple developers and not take care of handling copyright assignment issues (in other words, make a mess, or just let hte project become a GPL free-ride) then that's their choice....

Re: Why Open Source misses the point of Free Software

#16

Post by schallis » Sat, Feb 19, 2011, 6:24 PM UTC

Unfortunately, "Open Source" is easier to market than "Free Software". The real benefits of true free software evidence themselves in the end and that's what counts, not what you call it.

Edit: It is however important to distinguish between free software and thinly veiled proprietary software marketed as Open Source.

Re: Why Open Source misses the point of Free Software

#17

Post by btilly » Sat, Feb 19, 2011, 6:28 PM UTC

Free software offers the end user benefits that the end user only rarely understands or appreciates.

Open source offers developers benefits that lots of developers understand and appreciate.

Therefore open source is a much better marketing tactic. (Which is exactly what it was designed to be.)

Re: Why Open Source misses the point of Free Software

#18

Post by brudgers » Sat, Feb 19, 2011, 6:28 PM UTC

SwellJoe wrote: post #10

hasenj wrote: post #2

Or, why Free Software misses the point of Open Source :) Open Source is about the developers. Free Software is about the end users (or, it's supposed to be). In reality, Free Software ends up being useful only for programmers, hackers, technical people, and well, institutions which require programmers, hackers and technical people to run and grow their infrastructure (such as Universities and Governments). Free Softw…

"Open Source is about the developers. Free Software is about the end users (or, it's supposed to be)." In an ideal world, the user and the developer are one in the same. I don't mean everyone who uses a piece of software should have to know the code intimately; merely that they should have the freedom to see it, modify it and learn from it, should the need or desire arise. The power of the Free Software movement is t…

>"In an ideal world, the user and the developer are one in the same."

My vision of utopia does not include helping my mother debug her cell phone - explaining gmail is bad enough.

Re: Why Open Source misses the point of Free Software

#19

Post by SwellJoe » Sat, Feb 19, 2011, 6:33 PM UTC

brudgers wrote: post #18

SwellJoe wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Open Source is about the developers. Free Software is about the end users (or, it's supposed to be)." In an ideal world, the user and the developer are one in the same. I don't mean everyone who uses a piece of software should have to know the code intimately; merely that they should have the freedom to see it, modify it and learn from it, should the need or desire arise. The power of the Free Software movement is t…

> "In an ideal world, the user and the developer are one in the same." My vision of utopia does not include helping my mother debug her cell phone - explaining gmail is bad enough.

You've taken that quote out of context, as the next sentence dispels your fear of having to help your mother debug her cell phone. But, to answer that particular argument:

It can't help the previous generation in any notable way. That ship has sailed.

But, the next generation can be more capable than the current one, assuming we pass on the tools they need and a culture of learning and sharing discoveries. So, don't bother teaching your mother to code, unless she actually wants to learn. Teach your kids and give them the tools they need (which includes a huge variety of source to learn from).

Re: Why Open Source misses the point of Free Software

#20

Post by EGreg » Sat, Feb 19, 2011, 6:36 PM UTC

If they only called it Liberating Software, they wouldn't have had this happen. After all, open source software is also free (as in, costs nothing). But liberating software sounds like it confers freedom on the person -- actually liberating them.

Remember, branding is important.