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Follow-up to “The dystopian world of software engineering interviews”

jarednelsen.dev

281–290 of 538 posts

Re: Follow-up to “The dystopian world of software engineering interviews”

#281

I will never forget the time I was given a coding "challenge" and sent home with the instruction to send it back whenever I felt it was complete. This sent my OCD into overdrive, of course. For the better part of two days straight I coded my heart out and came up with this (what I thought perfect) robust system with all the bells and whistles. Heard nothing back. At all. My calls into the recruiter went unreturned an…

Even if legal (I wouldn't assume that it necessarily is, even if you signed something), this is extremely unethical, obviously.

Re: Follow-up to “The dystopian world of software engineering interviews”

#282

I've mentioned this before. I have a portfolio that consists of six figures LoC of code, across dozens of open-source repos; most of which I am the 100% sole author. I've written a fairly large open-source system that is rapidly becoming the world standard for a specific (rather small) demographic. It deliberately uses old and rather primitive technology (which is a big reason for it becoming a standard). I've writte…

> no one bothers to look at my portfolio [...] I usually send a couple of links [...] My portfolio leaves absolutely no question at all about what I can and can't do, technically.

I hear this a lot from software engineers, but it might be worth thinking about the underlying expectation that anyone should spend time poking through repos on the internet, why they would, and how hard it might be to standardize a hiring process that compares you to other candidates. Contrast your own opinion of HackerRank with the hope that hiring managers, who perhaps often don’t have the time, interest, or even ability to read someone’s portfolio to determine the quality of the code.

As someone who’s done a lot of hiring, I often glance at an online portfolio briefly, but I find it to be a low-quality signal for whether I will want to hire the person, and even for the technical ability. If I don’t know you, I can’t tell from your online portfolio whether you’re the sole author and/or how much you’ve contributed to a project. I can’t easily tell if you get a lot of your code from StackOverflow, or write it yourself. I can’t tell what motivates you, whether you love programming or you are hoping for a high salary.

While high technical ability is a requirement for someone I hire, it’s not actually the primary requirement. What I need to know is how adaptable people are, how well they’ll work in a team, how quick they are on their feet, whether they’re friendly under pressure, a whole bunch of things that you can’t learn from a github account. Communication, attitude, curiosity, optimism, and cooperativeness are incredibly important traits, as is technical potential vs existing technical ability. I seek out ways to hire people who can (and want to) learn quickly, regardless of current skill level.

Personally, I’m totally convinced by your comment that your technical ability is high, where you say it is. You would easily pass my entry filter and make it to an interview. But after that, I’d want to talk to you, not sit at my computer looking through your portfolio.

Re: Follow-up to “The dystopian world of software engineering interviews”

#283
post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> hiring mostly White/Asian males though Which seems reflective of the underlying pool of applicants.

Has a company like Google ever released data proving this? Latino's make up a fairly large number of the people that live in the bay area (23.5% [1]) yet there are like what 3.6%[2] of those people working at google. Seems like a pretty big gap. It would be interesting to see what their application/success ratio demographics are like. 1. http://www.bayareacensus.ca.gov/bayarea.htm 2. https://www.wired.com/story/googl…

> Latino's make up a fairly large number of the people that live in the bay area

How many of them hold relevant degrees for job openings at Google?

Re: Follow-up to “The dystopian world of software engineering interviews”

#284
post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't have a better way of doing things This is my least favorite part about discussing interview techniques. It's taboo to say anything other than "interviews are broken", as if there is some alternative perfect practice that companies are voluntarily choosing not to use. If no one, including the author of the linked article, can think of anything better, doesn't that mean that companies are already using optima…

I wonder if a sensible option might be short term contract-to-hire scenarios. You have three promising candidates? Instead of trying to extract signal from gimmick interview tactics, hire them all and put them on a 3-month contract with the opportunity to renew to full time. Then you're giving them real weork instead of easily crammed questions, and remove some of the anxiety affecting interview performance.

That would be fine for new college graduates and other unemployed developers, not so well at attracting talent that already has steady employment.

Re: Follow-up to “The dystopian world of software engineering interviews”

#285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I personally find some of the current (if I can call them) standards of tech hiring to be very narrow in which skills and capabilities they test. What would you propose as an alternative? I’ve been involved in training new engineering managers how to hire and interview. Everyone starts with the best intentions, but reality quickly forces some compromises. The bottom line is that you only have a number of hours in w…

Honestly, the "coding" is rarely the issue. For most software engineering roles you generally want someone who can: understand problems, figure out possible solutions, decide on which is best, communicate why it is best and (importantly) be flexible when the company wants you to do some other solution. Meet all those requirements and you are a useful member at most companies. I think a general chat about a broad prob…

I completely agree. We had this exact discussion at work the other day.

I mentioned to a colleague that what I value most is someone who is creative. There are many candidates out there who know all the buzzwords or can discuss features of a programming language purely from memory, etc.

This can make for some impressive interviewing, but it tells nothing of their ability to use that knowledge to solve real problems, or their creativity in how they use their skill and expertise when faced with new dilemmas.

Sure, you could contest that the creative side isn’t necessary for certain levels of engineering, or that only tech leads require this as a mandatory trait, but I would argue that it is far more important than what most interviews test - rote memorization.

Re: Follow-up to “The dystopian world of software engineering interviews”

#286
post #17

Honestly having an interview process that is highly standardized and teachable + learnable is a good thing, so I'm not sure why people complain. You know exactly what sort of questions you will be asked from company to company, and can spend nights and weekends over a couple weeks studying for it. Most jobs are not like that, and then you get extreme variance in expectation with little communication on how to prepare…

The problem is twofold: 1. False positives: you get folks who do really well at DS&A yet who are really bad developers. I mean really bad. I wouldn't have believed it if I had not seen their interviews and then subsequent performance. I'd wildly guess that it's about 20-30%. 2. False negatives: you get folks who are really good developers, and yet for whatever reason, perform badly on DS&A algorithms despite practici…

Where did you get all of your numbers? My experience dictate otherwise. Plenty of people who don’t know DS&A and are bad coders, and call themselves senior.

Re: Follow-up to “The dystopian world of software engineering interviews”

#287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I worked at a company where the interview process was basically "ask them about their experience, successes, and failures, and do whatever technical screen you feel works." I'm part of another online community that has a strong emphasize on social justice issues. These "just wing it" hiring practices are one of their biggest complaints about tech companies. There's a perception that the less well-defined and struct…

I have a very simple solution to this problem. It frequently evokes an instinctual negative reaction, for understandable reasons, but I truly believe it would be both equitable and effective. Ready? You want your company to be 50% women? Tell your teams that at least 50% of their hires must be women. That's it. To me, formalizing the quota but keeping the overall hiring process looser makes a lot more sense than the…

I see some people are reacting negatively to what you're saying. DVs are terrible as a dialog. And I, too, agree the comment leaves kind of a bad taste, but I think because it baldly points out some unpleasant things. I only see these categories of downvotes:

1. I hit the wrong button :)

2. I'm a bigoted member of a majority, and am downvoting because I think minorities should be oppressed.

3. I don't think any questions of race/gender/etc. should ever be considered in a workplace, and and downvoting because I dislike the whole idea.

4. What I suspect is actually happening: Like (3) I think everyone should be considered on their own merits, and you can look at company-wide stats to see if bias is occurring. Its good for the company to act against it in sum, but acting on the basis of race/gender/etc. on an individual basis is shocking and unfair.

The problem with (4) is that you're trying to have some kind of emergent effect that magically appears. It's a goal without being a goal. Worse, its a global goal you want to be actively worked against locally.

Developers love to complain about clueless management that doesn't know what it wants. Guess what folks, it's a common trait. Our other favorite trope is to figure out a technical fix for a people problem. And the problem with that is of course a tech fix only takes care of specific situations and not the underlying problem.

For example, as a tech fix we might decide that all interviews are done in a pitch-black room with vocoder voice synthesizers. Great, no question of race/gender/etc. Except, of course, for selection bias in our candidates. And even after they are hired there's biased reactions (unequal success for equal quality). People just naturally favor familiar attributes, even if those attributes don't contribute to a correct outcome.

So to be consistent, there are really only three choices: a) don't care, let the chips fall where they may; b) have an actual goal to equally represent everyone; c) encourage playing nice, and hope the results aren't too far off.

What actually happens, of course, is d) encourage playing nice, hope the results aren't too far off, then someone actually looks at the results and complains, so flail around trying to avoid doing anything too unpleasant to fix it.

Re: Follow-up to “The dystopian world of software engineering interviews”

#288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a very simple solution to this problem. It frequently evokes an instinctual negative reaction, for understandable reasons, but I truly believe it would be both equitable and effective. Ready? You want your company to be 50% women? Tell your teams that at least 50% of their hires must be women. That's it. To me, formalizing the quota but keeping the overall hiring process looser makes a lot more sense than the…

I’ve proposed this as well and it went over like a lead balloon. As did the very idea that more diversity would be good for the team. Ah well.

> As did the very idea that more diversity would be good for the team.

So, while I wholeheartedly agree that diversity inherently benefits teams and businesses (different experiences will lead to new and different approaches), it's just not a very convincing argument, because it feels "mushy". Here's one that I think is better:

If it's true that e.g. women have a harder time getting engineering jobs due to unconscious bias (and I'd posit that this is clearly the case), then that means female engineers are, as a group, undervalued. You should be able to hire a better female engineer for the same amount of money.

Harsh? Sure. But that's beside the point.

Re: Follow-up to “The dystopian world of software engineering interviews”

#289

I've personally seen no correlation between people who can solve problems and program when watched by another person versus people who can solve problems and program when left alone with a real problem, and ample of time to noodle on and resolve it on their own. The same is true for writers: most are likely not to be interested and/or able to do their best work when watched over the shoulder by another person. The /r…

> I've personally seen no correlation between people who can solve problems and program when watched by another person versus people who can solve problems and program when left alone with a real problem, and ample of time to noodle on and resolve it on their own. At most of my companies, we tried moving exclusively to take-home interview problems for this reason. Short problems that could be solved in 2-4 hours of t…

"interview practices will never make everyone happy."

This is true, but it's not a problem. The problem would be everybody using the same interviewing practices.

Me, I think complaints about spending a few hours on an assignment are ridiculous. All the alternatives are much, much more objectionable to me. The main fallback I have is a contract or temp position, which means my "interview assignment" takes months.

Re: Follow-up to “The dystopian world of software engineering interviews”

#290
post #271

I will never forget the time I was given a coding "challenge" and sent home with the instruction to send it back whenever I felt it was complete. This sent my OCD into overdrive, of course. For the better part of two days straight I coded my heart out and came up with this (what I thought perfect) robust system with all the bells and whistles. Heard nothing back. At all. My calls into the recruiter went unreturned an…

One has to wonder, then, why they didn't hire you. I have a theory. It's quite cynical, but it's taken me about 5 decades to arrive at it: life is a beauty pageant. I don't say this lightly. It was a very slow process to get to this point. A friend, colleague recently interviewed at a very popular, pre-IPO company that is often discussed (positively) here. He doesn't look like your typical engineer, but he's literall…

People like people like them.
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