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Follow-up to “The dystopian world of software engineering interviews”

jarednelsen.dev

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Re: Follow-up to “The dystopian world of software engineering interviews”

#51

Post by philjohn »

mikaraento wrote: post #39
jerf wrote: post #6

I think one of the major takeaways here is, stop asking algorithm questions [1]. Everyone. Just stop it. In my opinion, and modest experience (I've done several dozen interviews, so there are plenty more experienced then me, but I'm at least not new, plus nearly all interviews were for my team so I had to live with the results!) it isn't that hard to come up with small sample questions related to what the job actuall…

Full disclosure: I work for Google and like it I left Google in 2009, quite unhappy about the difference between a startup and corporate politics. After that I worked at 3 startups (5 years), 1 telco (1 year) and at McKinsey (3 years). I ended up interviewing at Google again in 2018, after deciding that a) I liked programming more than management consulting and b) my comparative advantage was in programming. I defini…

You missed a big one - giving them an idea of how you approach a problem and work through it. That's the biggest take away.

If someone just spits out an optimal solution straight away that's not actually a great sign. It doesn't matter if you struggle a little, or need a few hints, but showing you know how to break a problem down into smaller sub-problems and work your way up is an invaluable signal.

Re: Follow-up to “The dystopian world of software engineering interviews”

#52

Post by peter_d_sherman »

christiansakai wrote: post #38

There is no other sane and effective way to filter the insane amount of FAANG applicants, only DS&A. Other non FAANG/Unicorns that don’t pay as well as FAANG can drop the practice of asking DS&A questions. But for those companies that pay really really well, there will be insane amount of people that are willing to get a job there, and DS&A is a “May the strongest win” filter (although luck play a very strong role as…

But there is a way to filter the amount of FAANG applicants!

It is as follows:

Offer ridiculously low pay, such that only basic expenses could be paid for, like basic housing...

Then, see who shows up.

Whoever shows up... really wants a job.

You don't hire them yet.

You implement your own corporate bootcamp, where you give then coding assignments. These start easy, but progress, over a number of weeks, to those that are similar in form and difficulty to the type of work that the corporation does...

A supervisor or group of supervisors reviews their work after every week.

People who do not meet expectations are let go.

What you're left with after that process is your new hires.

That's how you cut down on frivolous resumes.

That's how you weed out the casual job seekers from the purists.

The purists don't care about money as much as working with the right people.

It's not for everybody.

People who need salaries obviously, beyond the most basic of living expenses, would be unable to apply...

Re: Follow-up to “The dystopian world of software engineering interviews”

#53

Post by philjohn »

aerovistae wrote: post #50
deanCommie wrote: post #35

I got to the last thread too late for a comment to make a difference, but I'm exactly the person most of you want to talk to or hate. I'm an interviewer at a FAANG company with >500 interviews in the last 5 years, I teach multiple internal courses on interviewing, and I think the system makes a lot of sense for companies at our scale. Ask Me Anything :) I currently have a toddler on my lap, but I'll edit this post la…

Okay, let's start with the obvious one-- why do you believe focusing on excruciatingly difficult algorithmic problems totally unrelated to the work you do is a good way of finding people?

Not OP, but it's often not about seeing you get a perfect solution straight away, they're judging your problem solving skills - how do you approach something you've probably never seen before. Do you choke? Do you break the problem up into smaller sub-problems?

Re: Follow-up to “The dystopian world of software engineering interviews”

#54

Post by winrid »

deanCommie wrote: post #43
winrid wrote: post #14

When I interviewed at Google for a front end position they didn't ask me a single CSS question. It was all algorithms and easy JavaScript questions. It was just really weird, like at least ask me how to center something. They bothered to ask me how I'd deal with diversity issues if I was in HR, though. I probably didn't get the job because of my answers there...

> They bothered to ask me how I'd deal with diversity issues if I was in HR, though. I probably didn't get the job because of my answers there... Strange postscript that suggests you hold some problematic opinions that indicate you can't play nicely with others? Did you fail to get the job because you didn't have the tech chops or is it because you said something wildly inappropriate on the behavioural questions? Wha…

I'm not trying to start a fight on HN. I just said that you should hire the best people you can. I screwed up a sorting impl. that I never bothered to practice.

Re: Follow-up to “The dystopian world of software engineering interviews”

#55

Post by ethanwillis »

deanCommie wrote: post #43
winrid wrote: post #14

When I interviewed at Google for a front end position they didn't ask me a single CSS question. It was all algorithms and easy JavaScript questions. It was just really weird, like at least ask me how to center something. They bothered to ask me how I'd deal with diversity issues if I was in HR, though. I probably didn't get the job because of my answers there...

> They bothered to ask me how I'd deal with diversity issues if I was in HR, though. I probably didn't get the job because of my answers there... Strange postscript that suggests you hold some problematic opinions that indicate you can't play nicely with others? Did you fail to get the job because you didn't have the tech chops or is it because you said something wildly inappropriate on the behavioural questions? Wha…

Actually problematic or just problematic to someone at Google?

Re: Follow-up to “The dystopian world of software engineering interviews”

#57

Post by irq11 »

scarface74 wrote: post #30
rekabis wrote: post #23

The “hopeless list”, no. 3: “If you run into an asshole in the morning, you ran into an asshole. If you run into assholes all day, you’re the asshole.” This pretty much sums up my impression of these hiring managers that crank the bar sky-high: they are assholes through-and-through, and are full of shit to boot. If you crank the bar sky-high, all you will get are two kinds of people: those that interview/test well, b…

But while they are getting guidance and mentorship, they are not being a productive member of the team, taking time away from experienced developers and as soon as they level up they will change companies and the next company didn’t have to invest training time. I know everyone has to start somewhere but from the company’s perspective, hiring a junior developer doesn’t make sense.

” I know everyone has to start somewhere but from the company’s perspective, hiring a junior developer doesn’t make sense.”

When did “not able to solve leetcode-nuclear puzzles while singing and tapdancing backwards”, become “junior developer”?

The OP is talking about “sky-high” levels of (interview) competency, and you immediately jumped to the conclusion that anything less must be juniors who need training to wipe their rears.

I think I see the problem in this field.

Re: Follow-up to “The dystopian world of software engineering interviews”

#58

Post by watwut »

ozim wrote: post #41
watwut wrote: post #16

I think that "apparently very few people actually know how to program a computer" part is more about how many people have "fake it till you make it" attitude or how large ego they have. Or how much they dont bother how they look like during interview and keep trying until they get lucky scoring position. And that actually is how many get to start programming. As in, one of common advice is to be self-learner and abse…

It is not only about people who try to get lucky for junior positions. I have seen people who think of themselves as "super senior developers" who were more "business bullshit specialists" who knew names of things but when faced with technical challenges were lost right away. Those people could maybe configure WiFi router with web interface but if you get them to work on industrial grade router with stripped down Lin…

I think these are in the "fake it till you make it" or "large ego" groups. And it is even very likely they have been employed at senior positions - senior by definition of managers that employed and kept them. And often even senior by needs of those companies.

One issue is that average management is not good and management of software projects is not solved problem. That badly affects hiring and promoting in many teams.

But another issue is that tech is wide range of jobs that require completely different aptitudes and skillsets. We are not even starting to classify it all enough to be able to reasonably communicate what position is.

Re: Follow-up to “The dystopian world of software engineering interviews”

#59

Post by rekabis »

winrid wrote: post #14

When I interviewed at Google for a front end position they didn't ask me a single CSS question. It was all algorithms and easy JavaScript questions. It was just really weird, like at least ask me how to center something. They bothered to ask me how I'd deal with diversity issues if I was in HR, though. I probably didn't get the job because of my answers there...

> They bothered to ask me how I'd deal with diversity issues if I was in HR, though. I probably didn't get the job because of my answers there...

Aye, diversity has fuck-all to do with hiring. Competency, skills, and the ability to work well with others _does_.

I mean, if you’re left with two equally appropriate candidates whose only material difference between them is one of diversity, fine. Make the SJW pick. But otherwise? The best candidate for the position’s technical and soft-skills needs is the one you should hire, regardless of skin colour or wedding tackle. To suddenly bring in wholly irrelevant filters into the hiring process is to put your company at a competitive disadvantage and make excellent candidates who happen to be “ideologically undesirable” far less likely to apply.

And in the end, putting ideology and doctrine ahead of technical and soft-skill requirements will lead to a company staffed with monkeys (to spindle a pay metaphor).

Re: Follow-up to “The dystopian world of software engineering interviews”

#60

Post by sjc33 »

hanswesterbeek wrote: post #45
sjc33 wrote: post #17

Honestly having an interview process that is highly standardized and teachable + learnable is a good thing, so I'm not sure why people complain. You know exactly what sort of questions you will be asked from company to company, and can spend nights and weekends over a couple weeks studying for it. Most jobs are not like that, and then you get extreme variance in expectation with little communication on how to prepare…

One reason to complain is that these interview-questions usually bare so little relevance to the actual job.

So what? It's a logic test. And you're still proving that you have enough experience to code well in general language e.g. java, python, javascript, ruby, etc.

It would be way more time intensive for the interviewee to be asked to code up some fullstack project for every interview.

Having to memorize some basic algorithm questions that are maybe 20 lines of code each is way better.

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