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More bosses give four-day workweek a try

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Re: More bosses give four-day workweek a try

#351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I had a manager at a startup tell me that conventional management assumes that engineers will only stay at a company for 18 months, so they really pile on the stress which is ironic, because isn’t that why people stay less and less longer at a company (can’t stand the slog)?

I think economically it may make sense to hire fresh people for less money, burn them out and then have them leave soon. This may be one reason for ageism .

That may be why there is so much emphasis placed on dev frameworks like React, because you can get JS programmers right out of BootCamp onboarded fairly quickly (and cheaply).

Also, there is a great deal of emphasis placed on process. If you will have new people taking over the code all the time, you should have a fairly strict requirement for patterns like MVVM and VIPER, and require new hires to be able to adapt to these quickly.

The Japanese had a similar structure, because they rotate engineers around every couple of years. The engineers stay with the company forever, but they change jobs frequently.

That means that it's very important to have a strict policy of heavily-documented, inflexible process, and you can have vast legacy codebases that people are afraid to change. If you can farm a lot of that out to a dependency framework, then it becomes S.E.P. (Somebody Else's Problem).

I'm not a huge fan of this approach, but many companies seem to feel it works.

There was a company called Taligent that took this to extremes. I read their style guide (I spent a great deal of time researching how other people did development -it made me quite the cynic). They had the strictest, most convoluted structure I've ever encountered.

Taligent eventually collapsed under its own weight. The idea was to only have Architects be creative, making line programmers little more than data entry. Programmers couldn't do stuff like create new classes without getting permission from an Architect.

Re: More bosses give four-day workweek a try

#352

These recurring 4-day work week discussions on HN show how non-European this site is. 4-day work weeks have been completely normal for lots of people in Europe for decades. In the Netherlands it's almost the norm to chose whether you want to work 4 or 5 days. 4 day work weeks are not always accepted everywhere, but usually they are in most places. In France the standard work week has been 35 hours for the past 2 deca…

The famous French 35 hour workweek only applies to certain categories of workers though. And even then it’s only where overtime kicks in. Every French white collar worker I’ve known (probably about a dozen or so) was on salary and had similar working hours to me (in Canada).

Also, French productivity can be overstated in statistics. They have relatively high unemployment amongst youth and the low-skilled. This essentially removes the least productive from the stats, making it look higher.

Not to say that a 4 day week would be bad, but careful what you base it on.

Re: More bosses give four-day workweek a try

#353
post #33

I remember when I interned at Lockheed Martin forever ago, they had a system where you normally work 9-hour days (8 on Fridays), and as a result had every other Friday off. It equated to a 80 hours for every two weeks, and it was really nice if you ever had to go to the bank or DMV (which are typically only open during weekdays). I always wondered why this wasn't more popular.

In Canada I’ve seen this at large companies over the summers for white collar workers.

Re: More bosses give four-day workweek a try

#354
post #282

In a world where no one is compelled to work more than four hours a day, every person possessed of scientific curiosity will be able to indulge it, and every painter will be able to paint without starving, however excellent his pictures may be. Young writers will not be obliged to draw attention to themselves by sensational pot-boilers, with a view to acquiring the economic independence needed for monumental works, f…

This is a funny kind of bubble quote, by someone I think out of touch with most people. I believe most people would watch TV, play cards, play video games. This is what they already do with their spare time, there's no reason to believe there wouldn't be more of it. It's amazing what a 'schedule' and 'working with others' and 'requirements' and 'deadlines' can do - it brings people to life and is probably the only wa…

> This is what they already do with their spare time, there's no reason to believe there wouldn't be more of it.

From the same essay

"The pleasures of urban populations have become mainly passive: seeing cinemas, watching football matches, listening to the radio, and so on. This results from the fact that their active energies are fully taken up with work; if they had more leisure, they would again enjoy pleasures in which they took an active part."

http://www.zpub.com/notes/idle.html

Re: More bosses give four-day workweek a try

#355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it not also the responsibility of employees to ask for that benefit? Specially developers have that leverage. We have the ability of changing the whole job landscape.

>Is it not also the responsibility of employees to ask for that benefit? I've been on both sides of this equation and yes employees have a responsibility to speak up, but given the dynamic of the relationship it's easy to see why they wouldn't. If managers aren't interested in listening then speaking up can just get you on their bad side.

Organizing activities to form a union is protected by US federal law.

If you’re afraid of management, why are you working there if you’re not attempting to level the playing field?

Re: More bosses give four-day workweek a try

#356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to mention your workout must be really short.

Not only that, but even after years of gym going and explicitly trying to find my most efficient workflow, the shower, changing to/from workout gear and driving to/from gym, makes each workout take 2 hours (1 hour training + 1 hour logistics overhead). 2.5 hours if I talk to my gym buddies or use the sauna/hot tub.

There is a gym very near my office. I do a short strength training circuit that takes me between 30-45 minutes. My commute is 15-20 minutes (medium size city and I live within 10 miles from work) and I shower at home.

Obviously very specific to my scenario, but it works for me.

Re: More bosses give four-day workweek a try

#357

I never understand these studies. I'm bootstrapping a startup and my work output scales linearly with hours until about 60 hours per week. 60 hours per week is comfortable with 4x12 hour days and then 12 hours over two shorter days. To accomplish errands and the like I just do things before 2pm which is plenty of time. For me personally more time working = more output. What am I missing? I should note that I have no…

I wonder what you do. There are plenty of things I could do for 12 hours, coding isn't one of them. Honestly, I'd say that I average about 6 hours a day of coding ability. That's an up to 4 hours before, because I changed a great deal of unhealthy habits.

Re: More bosses give four-day workweek a try

#358
> Also, he did away with open-floor office plans and saw workers spending far less time on social media.

While mentioned as an aside late in the article, I wonder how much this contributed to overall productivity. The author may be undervaluing this change in the work environment.

Re: More bosses give four-day workweek a try

#359
post #31
post #18

I can't begin to explain how much less stress I encounter in day to day life having just one week day to stay home. Just having a day to be able to easily knock out chores between Jira issues; drop the car off at the dealer, sell something on craigslist, complete a house project, go to the dentist, meet the handyman, go to the bank, etc is so nice. All of these things wind up on the back burner when I'm in the middle…

> I know not everyone is as sapped for energy as I am after work, but I leave work and sit in an hour of traffic. My energy is just sapped from me by the time I make it home. I have enough energy to feed myself and sometimes work out to maintain my health.. I know that some people just dont have the privilege of living close to their jobs, but after spending one internship getting up at 5;45am to drive with my dad to…

Long commutes are pretty terrible. Often times though parents are forced to choose between a long commute to their place of work but sending their kids to a good school zone vs the alternative. Unfortunately funding school zones based on property taxes leads to vast disparity in their quality and their ability to provide for students. The result for many is having to choose a long commute.

With that said I commuted for just over an hour+ each way in a sports car pre kids for 3 years and I never want a low car again. Give me a comfortable SUV / sedan any day now.

Re: More bosses give four-day workweek a try

#360

These recurring 4-day work week discussions on HN show how non-European this site is. 4-day work weeks have been completely normal for lots of people in Europe for decades. In the Netherlands it's almost the norm to chose whether you want to work 4 or 5 days. 4 day work weeks are not always accepted everywhere, but usually they are in most places. In France the standard work week has been 35 hours for the past 2 deca…

> The Netherlands and France are still alive and kicking. They have plenty of successful businesses. Are they? I can't think of a single technology company coming out of either.

I'm sure you have just didn't realize they were French. Schneider Electric, Technicolor, Atos, etc.
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