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Suspicious Discontinuities

danluu.com

291–300 of 307 posts

Re: Suspicious Discontinuities

#291
post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They might accept the raise and try to work less hours to keep the total similar. Or it works as an incentive to start finding ways to pay less taxes, out of a notion of fairness.

They're being paid hourly? How many people making six figures are paid hourly, and what kinds of job do they do? To be clear, I easily understand how a high marginal rate is demoralizing and unfair at the low end. I'm not convinced it's a problem if tax brackets at the high end go to some number above 50%.

Consultants and professionals who serve the public charge hourly.

Re: Suspicious Discontinuities

#292
post #197
post #74

The perverse incentives around these discontinuities is one of the worst misfeatures of programs intended to help people. Here is a real example. My niece wound up with 3 kids, divorced, with inconsistent child support payments. So she went on food stamps. She was looking for a better job. She found one, interviewed, and they wanted to hire her. But the salary that they offered was $0.50/hour too much for her to stay…

This is one reason behind universal basic income as a welfare program. There are no hoops, no cutoffs, no distortion of incentives.

Yes there are. Money if fungible, so UBI can become a tent subsidy for landlords by driving rents up, instead of paying for food and medicine while leaving rents at current equilibrium

Re: Suspicious Discontinuities

#293
post #228
post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like the business should be paying their employees enough to feed their families.

What is a "family"? Should a business adjust the salary based on how many members you have in your family? If one person has 10 kids and another has 2 they have drastically different requirements. An only child with a well-off family might only be taking care of themselves whereas another child might need to also be taking care of their parents and grandparents who also need to pay for medicines in addition to taking…

Business should pay enough to feed a family of say 4. I don't care what family you specifically have.

Re: Suspicious Discontinuities

#294
post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My point was that 63% is still very bad, and if it’s supposed to be an improvement, then the existing system is abysmal from an incentive perspective.

It's not 63%, it's a reduction of £0.63 in benefits (not in your total income) for each extra dollar you earn in income over the cutoff level. This prevents situations where it's better to stay under a cutoff of X in income until you can jump straight to an income of X income + Y in benefits, while staying on benefits until then.

Surely if benefits are part of your income, a £0.63 reduction in your benefits is a £0.63 reduction in your total income (up until the benefits are zero)? In other words, an effective tax rate of 63% on earnings while you receive a nonzero amount of benefits?

Re: Suspicious Discontinuities

#295
post #204
post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Money is fungible. If a salary increase of $1 leaves you with 37c in your pocket that's a de facto 63% marginal tax rate, however it happens to be structured for accounting purposes.

The salary increase of £1 leaves you with £1.37, because you get the £1 wage plus £0.37 benefits.

No, because in this setting your original take home was £1.00.

To lay it out in numbers:

BEFORE £1 pay increase: £X earnings, £Y benefits

AFTER £1 pay increase: £X + 1 earnings, £Y - 0.63 benefits

DIFFERENCE: £0.37

So a pay increase of £1 leaves you with an actual total increase of £0.37. This corresponds to an effective tax rate of £0.63.

Re: Suspicious Discontinuities

#296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Collaboration and production? I think your local libraries are very different to the sorts of libraries I used to use as a child. What you're describing there sounds more like a community centre of some sort. Libraries are traditionally silent for example. You don't collaborate in them or else you get shushed. You definitely don't run 3D printers in them! But I can see that if that's what you associate with modern li…

Your experience with libraries is 20years behind the times. My local library has a 3D printer.

Maybe so. But is it still a library if its primary cited uses isn't reading books? Why not just rename it to what it really is, some sort of community/maker centre?

Re: Suspicious Discontinuities

#297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's only not a tax technically In the same way that any benefit program being cancelled (eg. movies for kids for free every Friday on the town green, etc) are stealing. It's a benefit that had some or all of it taken away.

If it's part of your pay structure, and then suddenly it's not given to you, that would be stealing.

It's a benefit provided by the taxes of all. It's not part of your pay structure.

Re: Suspicious Discontinuities

#298
post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a hard time following this argument. It's not a tax, it's a limit to benefits. If the government comes along and says > You need $30,000 / year to live at a minimum in our society. We will make sure everyone that makes less than that gets enough in benefits to make up the difference. That's not a 100% tax rate for any money earned under $30,000 / year. It's reduced benefits because the definitions of the syste…

Then remove the word “tax” from my point and rephrase it as “only capturing (less than) 37% of the wage”, and every relevant point still applies. If you still don’t see the significance, I can only blame underpractice at the skill of abstraction. (I mean, if you don’t like the framing, fine, but you specifically said you have a “hard time following” the argument.)

> Then remove the word “tax” from my point and rephrase it as “only capturing (less than) 37% of the wage”

My problem is that I don't see it as capturing less of the wage, I see it as being granted less of the benefit / social safety net.

When you don't make enough money to support yourself, society kicks and and gives you enough so that you're ok (you meet some defined minimum). As you earn more, you need less support from society to be meet that minimum, so you're given less.

Eventually, you get to the point where you meet the minimum without assistance from society. At that point, the benefit is no longer needed (by the definition of the program).

At no point are the benefits your earnings, and at no point are your earnings being taken away by the less of the benefit. Rather, you're just not being assisted by society anymore because you don't need that assistance.

If the recipient of those benefits can't see that and, instead, sees them as "this is mine and you're taking it away", then I argue that's a problem with recipient. They are wrong. They should be happy the benefit was there for them when they did need it... and that it will be there some someone else when they need it. That is the point of social safety nets.

Now, I get that there's some "emotional attachment" to getting the money and then not getting because (as the recipient sees it) they're working (which is wrong; as noted, they're getting less because they need less, period). As such, reducing the benefits amount by a percentage less than 100% of earned ways helps mitigate those feelings. But at some point, the benefit must go away; it's not UBI. The rate at which it goes away is not going to make everyone happy, no matter what is done (that's the nature of compromise).

Re: Suspicious Discontinuities

#299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're missing the forest for the trees. Libraries are more than just books, they're free spaces for all types of learning, collaboration and production. I work remotely, sometimes from a library. I can request a space to work with others, and even hold large seminars if I wanted. There are dozens of free programs for kids to meet and learn, and there are opportunities for for working adults and the elderly, as well.…

Collaboration and production? I think your local libraries are very different to the sorts of libraries I used to use as a child. What you're describing there sounds more like a community centre of some sort. Libraries are traditionally silent for example. You don't collaborate in them or else you get shushed. You definitely don't run 3D printers in them! But I can see that if that's what you associate with modern li…

It's very much a library.

Re: Suspicious Discontinuities

#300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your experience with libraries is 20years behind the times. My local library has a 3D printer.

Maybe so. But is it still a library if its primary cited uses isn't reading books? Why not just rename it to what it really is, some sort of community/maker centre?

"Rebranding" would incur costs for very little benefit. Perhaps you could offer to pay for the new signs, logos, etc for your local library. You could donate the work required to submit a proposal, and if your numbers are good maybe they will be interested.

In general, I see libraries promoting their services via web sites and Facebook online, and physical bulletin boards in-house and around town.

My childhood, ~45 years ago rural Georgia (USA), had a great selection of proto-nerd books, even production facilities for the local-access cable TV channel.

Not strictly related to public library, but we also had a great time with after-school and summer maker programs sponsored by the County Extension office. In agriculture, everyone has to be a "maker".

(I don't know what urban regions were like. And as this was only about ten years after state-mandated apartheid, no doubt lots of kids were living in medieval conditions.)

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