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Amazon let a fraudster keep my Sony A74 IV and refunded him

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Re: Amazon let a fraudster keep my Sony A74 IV and refunded him

#161

Post by milankragujevic »

nulbyte wrote: post #126
nicolas_t wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interestingly about chargeback, I've noticed the same. I tried to file a chargeback with my bank in France and got denied despite it being a valid claim and me providing all the documentation for it. But, when I used my US credit card to file a chargeback it went through fine and there was no issue. I wonder if some countries are more lax with charge backs?

Some merchants certainly are. And in GP's case, PayPal might be playing the role of merchant, since they technically took the payment. I wonder if they just offer refunds to avoid having to accept chargebacks as such.

Yes, PayPal is the merchant, and as the CSR in the Ireland call center explained to me, they HAVE to issue the refund, or they risk extreme fines (the representative also told me PayPal could "lose the license to accept payments", but I doubt that, given their size. Regular merchants would, but PayPal is too valuable, so it would just get extreme fines and higher processing fees).

Re: Amazon let a fraudster keep my Sony A74 IV and refunded him

#162

Post by kube-system »

disiplus wrote: post #156
kube-system wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe for return fraud that’s an issue. But for buyers, the issue is usually more subtle problems with quality. (DOA, poor quality, counterfeit) The question is, can a platform protect sellers in this way and still afford to compete with other services? Most buyers like buying from Amazon/eBay where they always get their money back. It’ll be a tough sell to get them to use a platform with higher barriers to making a…

that should not be a problem in this case. the seller is selling a used item and the buyer is searching for a deal. if lets say ebay offers this protection for sellers and other don't.and lets say all sellers jump to ebay. all other platforms would lack good deals on used cameras so the buyer if he wants a deal would have to go to ebay and follow the process.

That's not how the dynamics of online selling works, unfortunately. Sellers have to go to where the buyers are, not the other way around. If you list your item on a site with no traffic and more overhead costs, then you're not going to be selling much.

Re: Amazon let a fraudster keep my Sony A74 IV and refunded him

#163

Post by davchana »

kube-system wrote: post #85
canada_dry wrote: post #56

This is such a basic issue that I don't understand why USPS or some other shipper w/ bricks-n-mortar haven't stepped up to offer some sort of package shipping certification. If I was the seller it could work as simply as me bringing the item to a shipper who would take their own photos and weigh the items being packaged up as well as some check that the item is as being described to the recipient. In turn the shipper…

> Too over simplified?? Probably. These shipping services don't really have any expertise to accurately judge the quality of many of the items they ship. They just move boxes around. Some rando at FexEx Office doesn't really know how to determine that your DSLR has the advertised shutter count, nor do they know how to verify the SMART status of those hard drives you shipped, nor would they be able to validate the aut…

I am copy pasting my comment from the same thread here:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22388197

The UPS or something can take a photo of the product or item they received. They are not verifying what's inside. They are just verifying the weight, a photo from few angles, available only in case of dispute. Seller can also do that, but a third party doing it with no horse in the race can act like a notary. We are verifying what we saw. A camera "box" with X pounds of weight.

If seller wants them to verify the inside contents, he needs to Show them the inside contents. Then UPS will be confirming by photos that yes, an item with this serial number is there inside and we packed it. No guarantee of shutter count or working or not. Just what they see & record in a photo.

Its kind of slippery slope. What if its just a empty camera body? What is its a junk camera? What if buyer says these above falsely?

Re: Amazon let a fraudster keep my Sony A74 IV and refunded him

#164

Post by nitrogen »

bathtub365 wrote: post #133
bonestamp2 wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds reasonable and it could be fairly automated too. You can already take amazon returns to UPS stores, Whole Foods or Kohls and they will box it for you. All they need is a camera system to video the boxing and then associate the shipping label/tracking number with that video. The boxing video could be made available on the courier's site for any interested party to see (when enabled by the shipper). Sure, it may…

Now employees of these stores have to consent to being recorded on video and their videos shared with strangers?

You think retail employers aren't using security cameras already?

Re: Amazon let a fraudster keep my Sony A74 IV and refunded him

#165

Post by milankragujevic »

nicolas_t wrote: post #90
milankragujevic wrote: post #33

Similar thing happened to me with PayPal, buyer got to keep the item, and got a refund (by doing a chargeback on their CC) and I got billed the amount + 15% of fees and punishment. I provided exhausting proof of delivery and that there was no contact or complaints from the buyer, but they didn't care. They said, since it's a chargeback, they HAVE to give them their money back. The buyer was a client of Commonwealth B…

Interestingly about chargeback, I've noticed the same. I tried to file a chargeback with my bank in France and got denied despite it being a valid claim and me providing all the documentation for it. But, when I used my US credit card to file a chargeback it went through fine and there was no issue. I wonder if some countries are more lax with charge backs?

Yes, it seems to me that USA (and in my case Australia) have extremely pro-customer payment protection. Europe, especially outside of the EEA, is very pro-bank and anti-customer in the specific niche of card payments.

The explanation I get is that if a card payment was verified by the customer with 3D Secure, it is considered valid and cannot be challenged. Which is true, the customer did enter their personal password on the page, and then the code received by SMS that's valid for 30 seconds. What the banks neglect to consider is a non-cooperating merchant that refuses to return money that was paid under a sales contract and specific conditions, i.e. "I am buying a light green colored desk lamp with frosted glass", and receiving a broken product, or "Item significantly not as described" -- counterfeit product, or a pink ceiling lamp with transparent glass. Banks in the USA almost always take the customer's side.

Interesting to note (because of the proximity and similarity between Canada and USA, vs. say Germany or Spain or Russia), Canadian banks, as far as I know (from friends there), do not take the customers' side if there is no doubt in the security of the payment process and the validity of the authorization, regardless of the claims by the customer.

Re: Amazon let a fraudster keep my Sony A74 IV and refunded him

#167

Post by harikb »

canada_dry wrote: post #56

This is such a basic issue that I don't understand why USPS or some other shipper w/ bricks-n-mortar haven't stepped up to offer some sort of package shipping certification. If I was the seller it could work as simply as me bringing the item to a shipper who would take their own photos and weigh the items being packaged up as well as some check that the item is as being described to the recipient. In turn the shipper…

There is a certain risk associated with buying used items. Even a item exchanged for cash via Craigslist can have issues - say a lens issue that only shows up in certain lighting. Too bad, we can’t solve that.

However these platforms can solve anonymity - may be UPS can verify ID and address in addition to basic checks with item photo and weight. That is, make it equivalent to an in person exchange.

Re: Amazon let a fraudster keep my Sony A74 IV and refunded him

#168

Post by nitrogen »

kube-system wrote: post #159
qwertox wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would he contact the buyer outside of Amazon? He would go to the police to point out his issue with the buyer, there's absolutely no need to contact him outside of Amazon. I'd rather think that Amazon would be forthcoming in assisting any demands an investigation would make, like provide all the information regarding the seller and buyer on this issue to the police. Sure, it would be nice if Amazon would withhold…

This is not a case where the police would be helpful, at least in the US. The police in the US generally will defer financial disputes to the courts.

They also, in my experience, defer dealing with theft to insurance companies.

Re: Amazon let a fraudster keep my Sony A74 IV and refunded him

#169

Post by milankragujevic »

davchana wrote: post #163
kube-system wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Too over simplified?? Probably. These shipping services don't really have any expertise to accurately judge the quality of many of the items they ship. They just move boxes around. Some rando at FexEx Office doesn't really know how to determine that your DSLR has the advertised shutter count, nor do they know how to verify the SMART status of those hard drives you shipped, nor would they be able to validate the aut…

I am copy pasting my comment from the same thread here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22388197 The UPS or something can take a photo of the product or item they received. They are not verifying what's inside. They are just verifying the weight, a photo from few angles, available only in case of dispute. Seller can also do that, but a third party doing it with no horse in the race can act like a notary. We are…

Please do not copy and paste comments, only link to them instead, if on HN. See this comment by @dang: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22122334 (and similar comments - https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... )

* I know I don't have the authority to say this, I just want to be helpful.

Re: Amazon let a fraudster keep my Sony A74 IV and refunded him

#170

Post by kube-system »

davchana wrote: post #163
kube-system wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Too over simplified?? Probably. These shipping services don't really have any expertise to accurately judge the quality of many of the items they ship. They just move boxes around. Some rando at FexEx Office doesn't really know how to determine that your DSLR has the advertised shutter count, nor do they know how to verify the SMART status of those hard drives you shipped, nor would they be able to validate the aut…

I am copy pasting my comment from the same thread here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22388197 The UPS or something can take a photo of the product or item they received. They are not verifying what's inside. They are just verifying the weight, a photo from few angles, available only in case of dispute. Seller can also do that, but a third party doing it with no horse in the race can act like a notary. We are…

Okay. Who is going to pay for this service? I'm not going to pay for it as a buyer. If I file a claim on eBay or Amazon, they'll almost always side with me.
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