Varoufakis to Publish Notorious Eurogroup Recordings from 2015 Meetings • Hacker News Board

Re: Varoufakis to Publish Notorious Eurogroup Recordings from 2015 Meetings

#191

Post by jorvi » Fri, Feb 21, 2020, 8:56 PM UTC

odshoifsdhfs wrote: post #6

tasubotadas wrote: post #4

That's a really shitty move. >a USB of the conversations he had secretly recorded while attending a Eurogroup discussion in Brussels People in private converse completely differently (more freely) than in public. Judging people on what they said there by a public standard (it's impossible that this will not happen) is extremely unfair. Especially since Varoufakis knew that he will be recorded, he has probably chosen…

While what you say is true, the contents of these meetings should be public knowledge. A lot of citizens of a few countries had their lives almost destroyed by the decisions of these politicians, so is only fair they know what was discussed, who defended them, etc. Let us not forget the pressure the ECB (and other european institutions) put on some countries that have come to light after the fact. (Like only allowing…

Greece loaned too much, collected too little taxes (or rather, scamming the tax man was and is an integral part of daily life there) and had extremely generous pension plans and ages. They hired Goldman Sachs to hide all this by cooking the books so they could join the EU. I have zero sympathy for the Greek and 'destroying a country for the decisions made by the elite doesn't count when you vote for those castle-in-the-sky promising elite year after year. Greece it's bill was simply due, and the myth of 'poor little Greece bullied by stringent North Europe' needs to die.

Re: Varoufakis to Publish Notorious Eurogroup Recordings from 2015 Meetings

#192

Post by petermcneeley » Fri, Feb 21, 2020, 9:34 PM UTC

zajio1am wrote: post #180

petermcneeley wrote: post #76

This is about "elections cannot be allowed to change economic policy" It reflects the anti democratic perspective of the Eurogroup and is one of the most fundamental political issues of our times. https://www.google.com/amp/s/markcarrigan.net/2017/05/08/ele...

> This is about "elections cannot be allowed to change economic policy" It reflects the anti democratic perspective of the Eurogroup It just reflects the general european position on separation of powers. That central bank and its monetary policy should be independent of executive branch of government in a similar manner like supreme court or whole judiciary branch. It is a position of authoritarian leaders who promo…

If economic policy is not in the scope of government then you certainly have a very narrow concept of government power. Even the judiciary's only power is to discover inconsistantancy in law. However given that you described elected officials as Authoritarian I would imagine you are simply a libertarian.

Re: Varoufakis to Publish Notorious Eurogroup Recordings from 2015 Meetings

#193

Post by lowdose » Fri, Feb 21, 2020, 9:42 PM UTC

CarelessExpert wrote: post #19

odshoifsdhfs wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While what you say is true, the contents of these meetings should be public knowledge. A lot of citizens of a few countries had their lives almost destroyed by the decisions of these politicians, so is only fair they know what was discussed, who defended them, etc. Let us not forget the pressure the ECB (and other european institutions) put on some countries that have come to light after the fact. (Like only allowing…

> While what you say is true, the contents of these meetings should be public knowledge. I honestly don't think it's that simple. While decisions should always be public, in order to come to reasonable compromises on issues, it can be valuable for leaders to be able to have closed-door conversations outside of the spotlight, where they don't have to engage in political grandstanding; after all, it's that kind of comp…

The US and the UK are both polarized because of the two party system. In Europe even opinion from the outer fringe are heard and compromises have to be made to govern. People need to be heard. I sometimes also think that the European model of government offering a lot more local influence is a stabilizing factor. Yes it is not that efficient but all people are able to participate in the democracy and this prevents the need to take over control.

Re: Varoufakis to Publish Notorious Eurogroup Recordings from 2015 Meetings

#194

Post by rumanator » Fri, Feb 21, 2020, 10:14 PM UTC

lottin wrote: post #182

xfs wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It quadrupled after joining because it borrowed money from Germany and other countries to buy German cars and other goods, not unlike the early stage of Bretton Woods. It had the lowest debt level before joining, like a fat cat to be squeezed by EU bankers, which was also why it was fast-tracked in joining the EU when it clearly didn't meet many clauses of the Copenhagen Criteria. But when push came to shove in 2008,…

GDP stands for gross domestic product. As its name indicates, GDP measures the production of final goods and services. Borrowing foreign money to buy foreign goods has no effect whatever on a country's level of production and therefore it cannot have any effect on the country's GDP either.

> Borrowing foreign money to buy foreign goods has no effect whatever on a country's level of production

And this is where you're wrong. Borrowing money has a direct and deep impact on ta country's level of production, mainly because that cash is dumped on the economy by spending it on buying goods and services.

Re: Varoufakis to Publish Notorious Eurogroup Recordings from 2015 Meetings

#195

Post by m0zg » Fri, Feb 21, 2020, 10:19 PM UTC

rumanator wrote: post #188

m0zg wrote: post #152

It's as though Farage was right, and there's a lot of unsavory undemocratic backroom dealing going on, cigar smoke and all.

> there's a lot of unsavory undemocratic backroom dealing That's an extremely loaded word for negotiating consensus. It's as if populist parties are manned by opportunists who have no qualms to throw everyone under the bus if that gives them any advantage.

Well, if it's all above board, they shouldn't be worried about transparency then, so what Varoufakis is doing is totally OK, am I right? Except I think there will be unsavory stuff in it, or there wouldn't be any reason for him to disclose this.

Re: Varoufakis to Publish Notorious Eurogroup Recordings from 2015 Meetings

#196

Post by nutjob2 » Fri, Feb 21, 2020, 10:20 PM UTC

JackFr wrote: post #161

nutjob2 wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem was that the Greeks had got themselves deeply, calamitously into debt. That the "solution" was awful or ineffective really is not relevant, since it's entirely a consequence of the former. At any time the Greeks could have said no to the proposed solution, but they didn't because they feared an even worse fate. The responsibility for Greece's situation must stay with Greece, unless they forgo the freedom…

> The problem was that the Greeks had got themselves deeply, calamitously into debt. To be clear then, any 'bailout' of Greece is truly a bailout not of Greece, but their creditors.

Not at all, that's a side effect. If what you say were strictly true, then why would Greece bother? Let the creditors burn.

Of course the reason Greece agreed is that the attendant inability to borrow after the default would be much worse for Greece than the lenders. That really goes to the heart of the situation Greece had got itself into: default would not save them.

Re: Varoufakis to Publish Notorious Eurogroup Recordings from 2015 Meetings

#197

Post by xfs » Fri, Feb 21, 2020, 10:21 PM UTC

rumanator wrote: post #185

xfs wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reaped the benefits? Greece's GDP dropped 30% since 2008 it and was forced into austerity by the Troika to move debts from the left pockets of Deutsche Bank to the right pockets, with the interests paid for by Greek tax payers.

> Reaped the benefits? Greece's GDP dropped 30% since 2008 Most of it was due to the fact that Greece had forged their nation accounting to falsify their actual state and hide sovereign debt, and once they faced bankruptcy they had no alternative than to come clean and straighten their accounting. Another important fact that is oddly left out by proponents of the "austerity is a conspiracy" rhetoric is the fact that…

Look, I'm no Greek, and you're entitled to your opinion. The problem is this is exactly the same kind of finger pointing and the Greeks (the Spaniards, the Italians, etc) are the spoiled brats rhetorics that are creating toxic politics in Europe and causing the rise of far right populists. I wouldn't imagine a rhetoric where evicted homeowners are blamed for causing 2008 crisis with irresponsible borrowing instead of the Wall St.

Re: Varoufakis to Publish Notorious Eurogroup Recordings from 2015 Meetings

#198

Post by antientropic » Fri, Feb 21, 2020, 10:36 PM UTC

lucianoq wrote: post #58

tasubotadas wrote: post #4

That's a really shitty move. >a USB of the conversations he had secretly recorded while attending a Eurogroup discussion in Brussels People in private converse completely differently (more freely) than in public. Judging people on what they said there by a public standard (it's impossible that this will not happen) is extremely unfair. Especially since Varoufakis knew that he will be recorded, he has probably chosen…

> People in private converse completely differently (more freely) than in public. They are deciding about life and death of people of a country (or many). They're not discussing about what's your favourite food and which sex position you like the most. Those conversation MUST be open and public, so people can judge the work of their delegates and decide to vote them again or not. If you don't want to be heard, don't…

Completely unrealistic. If Eurogroup meetings were to become open, they would simply become like any other kind of parliamentary "debate", with politicians holding speeches directed at their voters rather than genuinely intended to reach a consensus. The real negotiations would then move elsewhere.

Re: Varoufakis to Publish Notorious Eurogroup Recordings from 2015 Meetings

#199

Post by rumanator » Fri, Feb 21, 2020, 10:45 PM UTC

m0zg wrote: post #195

rumanator wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there's a lot of unsavory undemocratic backroom dealing That's an extremely loaded word for negotiating consensus. It's as if populist parties are manned by opportunists who have no qualms to throw everyone under the bus if that gives them any advantage.

Well, if it's all above board, they shouldn't be worried about transparency then, so what Varoufakis is doing is totally OK, am I right? Except I think there will be unsavory stuff in it, or there wouldn't be any reason for him to disclose this.

> Well, if it's all above board, they shouldn't be worried about transparency then

That's either extremely naive or disingenuous. It's quite frequent in negotiations that you have to concede parts that might be spinned as collosal political losses even if they are completely inoquous or even in line with the greater good or your political mid to long-term interests. The sovereign debt crisis is an excellent example, as even though it was in no one's best interests to let states go bankrupt, a hand full of member states were forced to navigate populist and extremist political parties and movements who were fundamentally opposed to both the EU, euro, and bailout processes who were spinning this issue to further their personal agenda. It's absurd to even assume that needlessly exposing your nation to this sort of manipulation is in anyone's best interests.

Re: Varoufakis to Publish Notorious Eurogroup Recordings from 2015 Meetings

#200

Post by cm2187 » Fri, Feb 21, 2020, 10:47 PM UTC

dependenttypes wrote: post #133

cm2187 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it's an analogy for a population who didn't see fit to pay their taxes, have a functioning state, who thought it was a good idea to adopt a foreign currency when it didn't make sense economically, and doesn't understand why they are forced to make economic sacrifices to correct the situation. I think the accusation of ignorance is kinder than the alternative ("let's not pay our taxes, the germans will pay for us")…

> who didn't see fit to pay their taxes With all the corruption going around I would not blame them. (even without it I would not blame them regardless. There are many people all over the world -including me- who consider taxes thievery) Anyway, please do correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't it only the rich/rich companies that did that? Similarly to how Amazon, Google, or Apple for example pay almost no tax. > who t…

As far as I am aware, tax fraud was (and probably still is) endemic in Greece. If you like to think it is just Amazon not paying its taxes, believe what you want. If you go see a doctor in Greece he will ask for cash.

What do you mean the population wasn't asked? It's a democracy. The population elects polititians that vote laws and make decisions. Like in almost every country and for almost every topic. If the greeks didn't care about what their polititians did, good for them. But they aren't children. They are a sovereign democracy. They own the consequences.