Varoufakis to Publish Notorious Eurogroup Recordings from 2015 Meetings • Hacker News Board

Re: Varoufakis to Publish Notorious Eurogroup Recordings from 2015 Meetings

#171

Post by odshoifsdhfs » Fri, Feb 21, 2020, 6:54 PM UTC

kriberg wrote: post #141

leto_ii wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In representative democracies people don't really have much control over the day to day operations of the government. They are also often deliberately kept in the dark about the decisions being made. Even if they had the necessary information available, it would be almost impossible to keep up with everything since people have other more important things to do to e.g. work. > Over time, I've found that the elected go…

Should the population of other countries be held accountable for Greeks disinterest in their own democracy?

No, but the banks that had no problem lending the money and collecting the interest, yes. That is the whole purpose of interest. Or you are telling me that the banks that lent billions, knew even less than the greek citizens?

Re: Varoufakis to Publish Notorious Eurogroup Recordings from 2015 Meetings

#172

Post by tsimionescu » Fri, Feb 21, 2020, 6:55 PM UTC

derefr wrote: post #150

Middleclass wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there any difference between "secret compromises" and corruption if the compromises are against citizens' interests and will? A black box might work IF it can be ensured that all data considered will be bundled with the decision. But how can such a thing ever be ensured? We'll soon have source-included but secret-compiler software as a technical possibility, by means of zero-knowledge computational proofs. It seem…

The difference is that citizens aren’t trained statesmen, diplomats, or political scientists. That’s the whole premise of representative democracy: that direct democracy (through e.g. having referendums on everything) doesn’t work, because people don’t have time to be good at whatever personally makes them a living and also politics; and so we pay some people to do politics for a living, so that they will have the ti…

What your are describing is technocracy, not representative democracy. In representative democracy, the will of the people is still supposed to be the most important factor in the representative's decision making. Sure, the rep is expected to have better context on the implications of any decisions taken. But they should still use that context not to govern how they think is best by their own rationality, but to govern in the way they believe is most likely to achieve the will of the people.

To give an extreme example, a personally peace-loving representative is supposed to declare war on another country if their constituency wants war to happen. However, if their constituency wants an end to hunger and some are noting that the neighbours have more food, the representative should do whatever they can to end hunger, avoiding war if they know that is unlikely to help.

Re: Varoufakis to Publish Notorious Eurogroup Recordings from 2015 Meetings

#173

Post by AnimalMuppet » Fri, Feb 21, 2020, 6:58 PM UTC

SuoDuanDao wrote: post #160

CarelessExpert wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> While what you say is true, the contents of these meetings should be public knowledge. I honestly don't think it's that simple. While decisions should always be public, in order to come to reasonable compromises on issues, it can be valuable for leaders to be able to have closed-door conversations outside of the spotlight, where they don't have to engage in political grandstanding; after all, it's that kind of comp…

I think that was true once upon a time, but the politicians seem as caught up in the partisanship as the voters these days. I also think an awful lot of confidentiality is abused or, in less extreme cases, simply reduces public engagement. I'd like to see the sausage-making being a lot more open, and the public becoming more tolerant of imperfections in our elected officials. Naive as that may seem, it actually seems…

> the politicians seem as caught up in the partisanship as the voters these days.

In public, yes. That's the point.

One could hope that in private, there's more sanity and less theater. I fear that it's just the same in private as in public, but one can hope.

Re: Varoufakis to Publish Notorious Eurogroup Recordings from 2015 Meetings

#174

Post by rumanator » Fri, Feb 21, 2020, 6:59 PM UTC

leto_ii wrote: post #72

smallnamespace wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, organizations that are able to keep their internal deliberations private have a strong advantage over ones who must ‘think’ openly. Imagine negotiating with an employer, except your inner monologue is always spoken aloud. One unintended (?) consequence of extreme transparency for governments, is that it makes government ineffective and easily subverted or outmaneuvered by opaque organizations, like…

> On the other hand, organizations that are able to keep their internal deliberations private have a strong advantage over ones who must ‘think’ openly. I agree, but an advantage over whom exactly? In this case it's simply an advantage of the ruling political and economic elite over European citizens (Greeks especially). There are few instances when things really should be kept secret e.g. during wars, but this was n…

> I agree, but an advantage over whom exactly? In this case it's simply an advantage of the ruling political and economic elite over European citizens (Greeks especially).

Not quite, the problem are extremist and populist political parties who abuse any crisis to force their way into relevance without playing any constructive role in any part of the problem. There's a long list of examples in European history of how extremistm exploits economic and financial crisis for their own self-interest and in the process causing a long steam of suffering and misery. It happened often enough to enable us to learn from that mistake.

Re: Varoufakis to Publish Notorious Eurogroup Recordings from 2015 Meetings

#175

Post by FabHK » Fri, Feb 21, 2020, 7:00 PM UTC

rumanator wrote: post #153

odshoifsdhfs wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While what you say is true, the contents of these meetings should be public knowledge. A lot of citizens of a few countries had their lives almost destroyed by the decisions of these politicians, so is only fair they know what was discussed, who defended them, etc. Let us not forget the pressure the ECB (and other european institutions) put on some countries that have come to light after the fact. (Like only allowing…

> While what you say is true, the contents of these meetings should be public knowledge. I completely disagree. We should expect these meetings to be held in a manner where participants should not be pressured away from doing the right thing due to concerns on how what they might say behind closed doors could be used as a political weapon to attack them. This asshole move from Varoufakis is a clear example, because t…

Other interpretations are possible, though. As Varoufakis has laid out clearly in his book, he believed at the time to have a better alternative at hand (better for the people of Greek, and better for the people of Europe; worse for some banks and creditors).

Re: Varoufakis to Publish Notorious Eurogroup Recordings from 2015 Meetings

#176

Post by rumanator » Fri, Feb 21, 2020, 7:00 PM UTC

leto_ii wrote: post #45

tasubotadas wrote: post #4

That's a really shitty move. >a USB of the conversations he had secretly recorded while attending a Eurogroup discussion in Brussels People in private converse completely differently (more freely) than in public. Judging people on what they said there by a public standard (it's impossible that this will not happen) is extremely unfair. Especially since Varoufakis knew that he will be recorded, he has probably chosen…

> People in private converse completely differently (more freely) than in public. We're not talking about private individuals discussing private matters informally here. These are people with great power arguing over the fate of millions. They shouldn't be saying things that they wouldn't want exposed and there is no reason to keep this secret.

Tel that to German and Dutch politicians who were pressured to reject any aid to Greece because of reasons.

Re: Varoufakis to Publish Notorious Eurogroup Recordings from 2015 Meetings

#177

Post by rumanator » Fri, Feb 21, 2020, 7:02 PM UTC

FabHK wrote: post #175

rumanator wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> While what you say is true, the contents of these meetings should be public knowledge. I completely disagree. We should expect these meetings to be held in a manner where participants should not be pressured away from doing the right thing due to concerns on how what they might say behind closed doors could be used as a political weapon to attack them. This asshole move from Varoufakis is a clear example, because t…

Other interpretations are possible, though. As Varoufakis has laid out clearly in his book, he believed at the time to have a better alternative at hand (better for the people of Greek, and better for the people of Europe; worse for some banks and creditors).

> As Varoufakis has laid out clearly in his book

His personal account of what he decides to claim and express, particularly the part where he chose to portray himself as both the Savior and the sole victim of everything, including his political party, is not exactly an accurate view of historical events.

His own account of his role on Greece's referendum is enough to understand his personal motivation to come up with his personal story.

Re: Varoufakis to Publish Notorious Eurogroup Recordings from 2015 Meetings

#178

Post by buboard » Fri, Feb 21, 2020, 7:06 PM UTC

Whatever is in these recordings, is probably meaningless. We know EU is a bureaucratic organization, we deal with it all the time in business, in research funding, in financial filing, etc etc. We also know that people argue a lot, thats why there isn't a central government, and the rules are based on consensus, not majorities. At best he should give them to an interested journalist, who could report on whatever is interesting to be reported. Publishing them wholesale just reeks of egomania.

As a greek, this kind of thing being "news" is insulting to me. This guy is a veritable idiot: a rich boy academic with little-to-show, who became popular for talking in economic gibberish to the most foolish part of the readers of The Guardian(1). After he was summarily dismissed at a cost of at least 100B, which caused needless pain and the first capital controls in my life, he proceeded to write a novel, make a movie, and write another novel for his personal vendetta. He now leads a tiny party of the worst champaigne socialists of europe[2] (who thankfully are on their way out of life). Yes, we have scumbags of this kind in this country, but this is not a representative specimen, or at least it shouldn't be the model of greek citizend who are struggling to catch up with the rest of europe.

1) I 've been tricked to watch a lot of his speeches. I couldn't find a single damn coherent actionable proposal there.

2) https://diem25.org/ap

Re: Varoufakis to Publish Notorious Eurogroup Recordings from 2015 Meetings

#179

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Feb 21, 2020, 7:08 PM UTC

rumanator wrote: post #153

odshoifsdhfs wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While what you say is true, the contents of these meetings should be public knowledge. A lot of citizens of a few countries had their lives almost destroyed by the decisions of these politicians, so is only fair they know what was discussed, who defended them, etc. Let us not forget the pressure the ECB (and other european institutions) put on some countries that have come to light after the fact. (Like only allowing…

> While what you say is true, the contents of these meetings should be public knowledge. I completely disagree. We should expect these meetings to be held in a manner where participants should not be pressured away from doing the right thing due to concerns on how what they might say behind closed doors could be used as a political weapon to attack them. This asshole move from Varoufakis is a clear example, because t…

[deleted]

Re: Varoufakis to Publish Notorious Eurogroup Recordings from 2015 Meetings

#180

Post by zajio1am » Fri, Feb 21, 2020, 7:18 PM UTC

petermcneeley wrote: post #76

This is about "elections cannot be allowed to change economic policy" It reflects the anti democratic perspective of the Eurogroup and is one of the most fundamental political issues of our times. https://www.google.com/amp/s/markcarrigan.net/2017/05/08/ele...

> This is about "elections cannot be allowed to change economic policy" It reflects the anti democratic perspective of the Eurogroup

It just reflects the general european position on separation of powers. That central bank and its monetary policy should be independent of executive branch of government in a similar manner like supreme court or whole judiciary branch.

It is a position of authoritarian leaders who promote that everything should be under the control of the people (i.e. under their control as people representatives).