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How communist Bulgaria became a leader in technology, robotics and sci-fi (2018)

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Re: How communist Bulgaria became a leader in technology, robotics and sci-fi (2018)

#21

Post by cambalache »

qubex wrote: post #8
alexgmcm wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember in Red Plenty it describes how the USSR decided to just copy IBM machines rather than build their own at some point. It's a shame as MSU was working on some really interesting stuff including the weird Setun ternary computer.

Red Plenty is a fantastic and unusual book, I highly recommend it to everybody with even a cursory interest in mathematics, economics, logistics, information technology, politics, or history.

I didn't like it. I mean, the argument and data were interesting. What bothered me was the narrative, it was trite and disingenuous and clearly written by a clueless white guy.

Re: How communist Bulgaria became a leader in technology, robotics and sci-fi (2018)

#22

Post by ativzzz »

cambalache wrote: post #21
qubex wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Red Plenty is a fantastic and unusual book, I highly recommend it to everybody with even a cursory interest in mathematics, economics, logistics, information technology, politics, or history.

I didn't like it. I mean, the argument and data were interesting. What bothered me was the narrative, it was trite and disingenuous and clearly written by a clueless white guy.

Everything you said makes sense up until

> clueless white guy

race adds absolutely nothing to your argument, especially considering the USSR was majority white.

Re: How communist Bulgaria became a leader in technology, robotics and sci-fi (2018)

#23

Post by [deleted] »

alexgmcm wrote: post #6
severak_cz wrote: post #2

I wonder if Bulgaria really became leader in tech. In Czechoslovakia we also had some sort of computer industry. We also had state security agents buying western tech in disguise and importing it home for cloning. I even know one guy who worked at computer reverse engineering institute back then. Also I have found memoirs of some random guy who worked as IT specialist for Stb (Czech equivalent of Stasi). However, thi…

I remember in Red Plenty it describes how the USSR decided to just copy IBM machines rather than build their own at some point. It's a shame as MSU was working on some really interesting stuff including the weird Setun ternary computer.

[deleted]

Re: How communist Bulgaria became a leader in technology, robotics and sci-fi (2018)

#24

Post by andrepd »

cambalache wrote: post #21
qubex wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Red Plenty is a fantastic and unusual book, I highly recommend it to everybody with even a cursory interest in mathematics, economics, logistics, information technology, politics, or history.

I didn't like it. I mean, the argument and data were interesting. What bothered me was the narrative, it was trite and disingenuous and clearly written by a clueless white guy.

Can you elaborate, and explain why the author's skin tone is relevant? Unless I'm very mistaken, Russian people are mostly very fair-skinned...

I'm not saying the rest of the criticism is right or wrong, but that last bit was uncalled for.

Re: How communist Bulgaria became a leader in technology, robotics and sci-fi (2018)

#25

Post by [deleted] »

buzzkillington wrote: post #9
severak_cz wrote: post #2

I wonder if Bulgaria really became leader in tech. In Czechoslovakia we also had some sort of computer industry. We also had state security agents buying western tech in disguise and importing it home for cloning. I even know one guy who worked at computer reverse engineering institute back then. Also I have found memoirs of some random guy who worked as IT specialist for Stb (Czech equivalent of Stasi). However, thi…

>At its peak, Bulgaria supplied 40% of the computers in COMECON. The electronics industry employed 300,000 workers, and it generated 8 billion rubles a year. [0] That's on top of a population of just under 9 million and a working age population of 6 million [1], so 5% of the workforce was involved in the production of computer hardware alone. It seems there was a very large bet on the computer industry from the commu…

[deleted]

Re: How communist Bulgaria became a leader in technology, robotics and sci-fi (2018)

#26

Post by macspoofing »

naveen99 wrote: post #18
nimbius wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a former Soviet satellite it was in an excellent position to do so. the USSR was first in space, first to the moon, and first to invent the universally programmable computer, the MESM. in 1958 they even invented the first mobile phones.

I wonder why the Russians or even the Chinese or Indians haven’t publicly attempted to clone Microsoft Windows (a desktop os). There is a Russian Linux distro. But I would think it would be more productive to have an international software arms race than a military / space arms race.

Because it's hard and especially hard for monolithic systems (i.e. governments) to go up against private enterprises in certain spaces. Governments are really good at funding cutting edge research that does not have an immediate or obvious market (e.g. early internet, space exploration, fundamental physics research, etc.). Governments are not good at actually competing in a space where there is a market and private competition.

>But I would think it would be more productive to have an international software arms race than a military / space arms race.

There is. It's called 'the market'. We are in the midst of an 'international software arms race', and this arms race spans every category of software. You want project management software? There are a thousand options. In a top-down communist-style system, you would maybe get one option.

Re: How communist Bulgaria became a leader in technology, robotics and sci-fi (2018)

#27

Post by hylaride »

nradov wrote: post #17
alexgmcm wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I liked it - I felt it didn't really answer the question it seemed to set out with though. That is - there was a time when it looked like the USSR was genuinely going to catch up with and surpass the USA, how did they manage this and where did it go wrong?

The USSR was never actually catching up. With access to more accurate historical data we now know that much of their reported economic development was based on falsified official statistics.

That's not entirely accurate. Between 1930-1970s (with some hiccups) the USSR was indeed "catching up", but this was because they were industrializing from almost nothing, plus rebuilding after the war.

It was the stagnation in the 1970s where the centrally planned economy couldn't adapt to consumer goods, light industry, and technology where they fell further and further behind. Various incentive problems exasperated things. Things would have been much worse in the 70s if high oil prices didn't mask these underlying problems, allowing the USSR to obtain hard currency to import goods.

Don't get me wrong, communism was bad. However, there were periods where it appeared to look superior. The quality of life in North Korea was "superior" to the south until the late 70s (much of this was backed by soviet subsidies, etc), but the optics still existed. There was a similar, though much more brief, period where east Germany had a faster growing economy than the west. There is a reason the Berlin wall was built in the 60s and not earlier.

Re: How communist Bulgaria became a leader in technology, robotics and sci-fi (2018)

#29

Post by nradov »

naveen99 wrote: post #18
nimbius wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a former Soviet satellite it was in an excellent position to do so. the USSR was first in space, first to the moon, and first to invent the universally programmable computer, the MESM. in 1958 they even invented the first mobile phones.

I wonder why the Russians or even the Chinese or Indians haven’t publicly attempted to clone Microsoft Windows (a desktop os). There is a Russian Linux distro. But I would think it would be more productive to have an international software arms race than a military / space arms race.

Wine is kind of a clone of Windows, and available to everyone. But in general Microsoft and Apple change their desktop OSs so fast that it's impractical for cloners to keep up. The clones will always have compatibility problems and fail to support some applications software. Just implementing the published APIs is insufficient because there's so much undocumented behavior.

Re: How communist Bulgaria became a leader in technology, robotics and sci-fi (2018)

#30

Post by atmin »

cosmolev wrote: post #28

I heard a story that at the opening ceremony of a semiconductor plant some Bulgarian communist party member made a speech where he said that semiconductors is just a first step and they are going in the direction of full conductors.

Not just some member, but the leader. He did know how to behave in this role (including allowing such stories become widespread), he was the leader for 45 years.
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