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Why Germans won’t heat their homes even with free electricity?

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Re: Why Germans won’t heat their homes even with free electricity?

#251

Post by wolfhumble »

krzyk wrote: post #193
serpix wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Modern air pumps work with good efficiency even down to around -15c which is a rare temperature for post global warming world.

Aren't air pumps less power efficient then ground ones? Also, is it possible for air pump to heat a liquid in pipes? I mean can I have air pump that provides heating to the floor? If the floor is warm then body thinks it is warm. I know air pumps only as air conditioners and they just blew warm air around, which is not that comfortable if you are just where the warm wind blows :)

There are many companies that deliver air to water heat pumps, e.g. Daikin, Mitsubishi etc.

Most of these — these days – seem to be for both cooling and heating, but I know Mitsubishi Ecodan have models for just heating. If you live in a building with pipes installed, the pipes need to be specially insulated to carry cold water, if not the moisture in the air will seek the cold pipes and form condensation thus causing humidity problems.

If you are looking into installing an air to water heat pump for heating your home, you can either use it for floor heating and/or different types of radiators (many solutions also offer sanitary water heating as well, for showers etc.) Sometimes you can use the radiators that are already installed in your home and just install the water pump system, but that requires that the water warmed up by the heat pumps is sufficiently warm (and that depends on the company/model chosen). If the water is not sufficiently warm, you either need to install a bigger radiator or newer types of radiators that are called low temperature radiators. The latter radiators are "smarter" and gives more heat at a lower temperature, but typically are also more expensive.

Here are a couple of links for more info. The video is more for illustration purposes, as models changes all the time. It is also important to point out that – in general – there are lots of different solutions on how these machines are assembled. Sometimes the outdoor unit contains technology that in other models are stored in the indoor unit. Sometimes the water container is stored together with the indoor unit itself, sometimes these are separate. It all depends on available space, or if you like things compact or not.

I have nothing to do with Daikin or Mitsubishi, I have just been looking into installing this in our own home. I am looking into an air to water air pump, and only for heat as our pipes are not properly insulated.

https://www.ecodan.de/en/heat-pumps/hydroboxes/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0h-XHJmEtZU&t=171s

Re: Why Germans won’t heat their homes even with free electricity?

#252

Post by rmetzler »

louthy wrote: post #236
marcosscriven wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We called it storm Ciara in the UK. I wonder why we don’t unify names.

I wonder why we even name storms in the first place. All it does is feed the 24 hour news monster

Why do we name vulnerabilities in software? It’s much easier to talk about it that way.

Re: Why Germans won’t heat their homes even with free electricity?

#253

Post by [deleted] »

nickysielicki wrote: post #227
rini17 wrote: post #13

Here in a central european country, end-user price for Russian natural gas is about 4 eurocents/kWh. Electricity is 12 cents/kWh, in Germany even more iirc. I have no idea about wholesale spot prices, but I don't see any incentive to switch to electricity as the price isn't going below 4 cents so often.

That’s crazy. I use Griddy in Texas and my price has been generally below $0.02c/kWh the past two months.

[deleted]

Re: Why Germans won’t heat their homes even with free electricity?

#254

Post by feintruled »

louthy wrote: post #236
marcosscriven wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We called it storm Ciara in the UK. I wonder why we don’t unify names.

I wonder why we even name storms in the first place. All it does is feed the 24 hour news monster

The article linked above explains it https://www.countryliving.com/uk/news/a28924357/met-office-s...

To 'raise awareness' of weather events, as if one might not notice them otherwise. To be less cynical, people might pay more attention to weather warnings if they are named storms? Not sure how long that effect will stick if we have a named storm twice a month! I think you might not be far wrong saying it's about grabbing headlines.

Re: Why Germans won’t heat their homes even with free electricity?

#255

Post by akvadrako »

rini17 wrote: post #248
serpix wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Modern air pumps work with good efficiency even down to around -15c which is a rare temperature for post global warming world.

Nope it does not work like that. The temperature extremes are increasing too, so the number of -15°C days decreases only slightly. For example, despite last year was on average warmest on record, my tomatoes still suffered from sudden frost in May and then again in October.

Actually most of the warming is due to milder winters and at more extreme latitudes. So even if variation increased, it could still result in fewer very cold days.

Re: Why Germans won’t heat their homes even with free electricity?

#256

Post by [deleted] »

nickysielicki wrote: post #227
rini17 wrote: post #13

Here in a central european country, end-user price for Russian natural gas is about 4 eurocents/kWh. Electricity is 12 cents/kWh, in Germany even more iirc. I have no idea about wholesale spot prices, but I don't see any incentive to switch to electricity as the price isn't going below 4 cents so often.

That’s crazy. I use Griddy in Texas and my price has been generally below $0.02c/kWh the past two months.

[deleted]

Re: Why Germans won’t heat their homes even with free electricity?

#257

Post by read_if_gay_ »

probably_wrong wrote: post #148

> On Monday 10th February 2020 something historical happened. For the first time, the market price of electricity fell below zero in Finland.(...) While this single day was a very windy one... I feel I should point out that "a very windy day" is a big understatement. February 10, 2020 was the day when storm Sabine arrived in northern Europe. In Germany, all medium and long distance trains stopped (electric trains, bt…

I don't actually have a clue about this stuff but I think wind turbines actually won't produce any power when the wind is too strong because they might break or something.

Re: Why Germans won’t heat their homes even with free electricity?

#258

Post by dgellow »

Freak_NL wrote: post #218
marcosscriven wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We called it storm Ciara in the UK. I wonder why we don’t unify names.

Names are being unified actually. The Dutch meteorological institute now cooperates with the British and Irish institutes for naming via the EUMETNET system. There are now two regions in Europe where names are decided in cooperation: West, and Southwest. West is Ireland, United Kingdom, Netherlands, and Belgium, where storms tend to originate in the West. Southwest is the Iberian peninsula and France. A third region…

That's fascinating, thanks for sharing

Re: Why Germans won’t heat their homes even with free electricity?

#259

Post by squiggleblaz »

Tepix wrote: post #238
squiggleblaz wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your point (1) is the point of the article. If the market price of electricity is 0€/MWh, the retail price is still bloody expensive because there's a ton of taxes, most of which do not relate to source of the energy nor its cost. You claim (2) is a misunderstanding of the title. The title is intended to be interpreted as "Why Germans won't heat their homes with electricity, even if it's free". That is how I immediat…

The market price does not directly correlate with the retail price even if you take into account taxes and other fees. The average market price may affect the retail prices in the long run if it goes up or down. We're seeing prices for electricity as low as 0€ (or lower) because there isn't enough storage capacity.

We're seeing prices for electricity as low as 0€ or less because people aren't using it efficiently. Part of that is because there is insufficient storage capacity, preventing it from being used when there's more demand and less wind.

But another part of that is that retail prices don't correspond close enough to market prices, so people aren't incentivised to use the best source of energy available at a time. An electric heater isn't that expensive. An app that broadcasts the current energy price is probably a little more expensive, especially since the company that produces it will want to add as many expensive lock in features as they can.

The German marketplace is remarkably inefficient. It's extremely difficult to cancel contracts here for instance — you most commonly have to do it several months in advance, or else they will automatically extend themself without the actual, legitimate consent of the client.

There's many problems but most of them are caused by bugs in the German marketplace which could be fixed by regulation intended to improve efficiency. For some reason, all the regulation here is intended to reduce efficiency.

Re: Why Germans won’t heat their homes even with free electricity?

#260

Post by kalleboo »

louthy wrote: post #236
marcosscriven wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We called it storm Ciara in the UK. I wonder why we don’t unify names.

I wonder why we even name storms in the first place. All it does is feed the 24 hour news monster

In Japan, the typhoons are just numbered. “Let’s not go out this weekend, Typhoon 12 is supposed to make landfall”
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