Why Germans won’t heat their homes even with free electricity? • Hacker News Board

Re: Why Germans won’t heat their homes even with free electricity?

#141

Post by _ph_ » Fri, Feb 21, 2020, 7:00 AM UTC

cameronh90 wrote: post #112

anoncake wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you can never reach 100% renewables Bullshit. You need storage, obviously. > Am I missing something Yes.

Or alternatively/in combination with dynamic demand, smart grids, wide area transmission and overprovisioning. I don't really get why the nuclear "base load" generation even helps. If nuclear generates 70% of our peak load, and our peak load happens on a windless, dark day - what then? We still need storage and likely CCGT as backup of last resort.

France shows, how much effort it takes to generate a stable grid with electricity being produced mostly by nuclear power plants. Due to the limitations in regulating the power output, they have to operate the power plants not at the most efficient load but a lower one which gives them more regulation capability. Also, using up the electricity at night becomes a challenge. Belgium for example installed huge streetlights on their highways so they can increase the night load.

Re: Why Germans won’t heat their homes even with free electricity?

#142

Post by Marsymars » Fri, Feb 21, 2020, 7:05 AM UTC

Retric wrote: post #125

endorphone wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The issue with heat pumps is you may need far less heat at 15c when their very efficient than at -15c when their not." My home is heated with a heat pump. I live in Canada, and just went through a period of -20C. It works great and is a fraction of the cost of heating with natural gas. It also operates as a fantastic AC in the summer. It uses a closed loop of water to pipes in the ground, with the ground as the "sin…

The ground ends up close to the average temperature of the local environment which in your case is a long way from -15c. Excluding of course hot springs etc, but that’s a separate and very localized solution. Further, if you’re that far south a solar hot water heater system is still cheaper to build + operate and in terms of energy costs. People dealing with permafrost both directly are stuck with lower temperatures…

Only about 35 million people in the entire world are dealing with permafrost.

Re: Why Germans won’t heat their homes even with free electricity?

#143

Post by asveikau » Fri, Feb 21, 2020, 7:16 AM UTC

dekhn wrote: post #36

I recall talking to some europeans and they said they like their driers, which only half dry clothes (they put them up on a line to finish) but use less energy. It's some sort of virtue thing, I guess.

I have had quite a few shirts ruined by dryers over the years. These days I just hang them up.

Re: Why Germans won’t heat their homes even with free electricity?

#144

Post by _ph_ » Fri, Feb 21, 2020, 7:23 AM UTC

jakub_g wrote: post #32

I'm rather a noob in the topic, but I've been reading in recent months about energy market and it seems like a collective insanity in the light of the climate crisis. - In most(whole?) Europe, electricity used by trains is taxed higher than jet fuel used by planes (legacy measure from decades ago which was meant to boost air market; of course now it's hugely difficult to change it) - Germany went strongly into renewa…

The German CO2 footprint for electricity production decreased quite a bit in recent years, in 2019 46% of all electricity was produced by renewables. The progress is compensated by the traffic sector increasing fuel consumption at the same time.

France has the problem, that they are not able to build enough new reactors (cost, construction time) to replace the aging operating reactors. So ramping up renewables is the logical conclusion and besides having quite a lot of hydro power already installed, France has great potential of wind (very windy coasts at 3 sides of the country) and solar (sunny south).

Re: Why Germans won’t heat their homes even with free electricity?

#145

Post by MertsA » Fri, Feb 21, 2020, 7:25 AM UTC

nl wrote: post #115

codemac wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nuclear power is the only solution. How much energy storage do we need to not need nuclear? That seems to be an assumption you're making that I'm not actually familiar with.

To actually answer this question is hard . The best answer I've seen is between 3% and 10% of total grid capacity, depending on interconnectivity and geographical diversity[1]. That's for a 100% renewable approach, which is great. Personally I think there is a role for gas fired stations - these produce about 50% of the emissions of coal stations, are cheap and quick to build (very roughly $1M for 1MW) and most impor…

>The best answer I've seen is between 3% and 10% of total grid capacity

It looks like that's talking about 3% to 10% of the total monthly power output.

Re: Why Germans won’t heat their homes even with free electricity?

#146

Post by catalogia » Fri, Feb 21, 2020, 7:26 AM UTC

oh_sigh wrote: post #83

dekhn wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My collection of 20+ year old T-shirts does not support this hypothesis. my experience has been the agitator in the washer is what causes the most damage.

The lint in the lint trap comes from somewhere, and I really doubt that much material is flying off of air dried clothes.

Judging by the color of my lint, 99% of it comes off bath towels rather than clothing. At least, with my towels and my clothing.

(My towels are a very distinct shade of red, a color I never wear. The lint is the exact same color.)

Re: Why Germans won’t heat their homes even with free electricity?

#147

Post by omgtehlion » Fri, Feb 21, 2020, 7:28 AM UTC

First, they killed nuclear, which prompted more coal production. Now they skewed wind so much that burning gas is cheaper than using green energy.

It seems no matter what Germany does, it only promotes fossil fuel usage. Quite opposite of what they wanted...

Re: Why Germans won’t heat their homes even with free electricity?

#148

Post by probably_wrong » Fri, Feb 21, 2020, 7:28 AM UTC

> On Monday 10th February 2020 something historical happened. For the first time, the market price of electricity fell below zero in Finland.(...) While this single day was a very windy one...

I feel I should point out that "a very windy day" is a big understatement. February 10, 2020 was the day when storm Sabine arrived in northern Europe. In Germany, all medium and long distance trains stopped (electric trains, btw), and plenty of people stayed inside. Lots of closed schools, too.

I don't necessarily disagree with the article's central points. But picking up the one outlier in which there's ridiculous amounts of wind and entire countries are working at half capacity seems naive at best.

Re: Why Germans won’t heat their homes even with free electricity?

#149

Post by cm2187 » Fri, Feb 21, 2020, 7:34 AM UTC

omgtehlion wrote: post #147

First, they killed nuclear, which prompted more coal production. Now they skewed wind so much that burning gas is cheaper than using green energy. It seems no matter what Germany does, it only promotes fossil fuel usage. Quite opposite of what they wanted...

What I don't get is how renewable energy are supposed to be cheaper though they still need massive subsidies.

Re: Why Germans won’t heat their homes even with free electricity?

#150

Post by thaumasiotes » Fri, Feb 21, 2020, 7:36 AM UTC

dekhn wrote: post #76

shazow wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Overdrying clothes damages them. Hang-drying clothes increases the clothes' longevity.

My collection of 20+ year old T-shirts does not support this hypothesis. my experience has been the agitator in the washer is what causes the most damage.

What causes the most damage to my old T-shirts is deodorant stains. :(

For shirts I run through the dryer, they don't seem to have suffered much by it. But I don't run printed designs through the dryer, because they take serious damage that way.