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Why Germans won’t heat their homes even with free electricity?

kaikenhuippu.com

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Re: Why Germans won’t heat their homes even with free electricity?

#51

Post by archgoon »

jakub_g wrote: post #32

I'm rather a noob in the topic, but I've been reading in recent months about energy market and it seems like a collective insanity in the light of the climate crisis. - In most(whole?) Europe, electricity used by trains is taxed higher than jet fuel used by planes (legacy measure from decades ago which was meant to boost air market; of course now it's hugely difficult to change it) - Germany went strongly into renewa…

> But even Macron wants to reduce nuclear % in power production of France.

What? Why?

Re: Why Germans won’t heat their homes even with free electricity?

#52

Post by TheSpiceIsLife »

Dumblydorr wrote: post #44
jakub_g wrote: post #32

I'm rather a noob in the topic, but I've been reading in recent months about energy market and it seems like a collective insanity in the light of the climate crisis. - In most(whole?) Europe, electricity used by trains is taxed higher than jet fuel used by planes (legacy measure from decades ago which was meant to boost air market; of course now it's hugely difficult to change it) - Germany went strongly into renewa…

There's a lot that can be done with renewables without nuclear or fossils, you can use demand response, batteries, hydro storage, and compressed air storage to store very cheap electricity.

Not everywhere has sites that are good for pumped-hydro storage, typically requiring an existing hydro electric dam.

Compressed air is very inefficient.

But the general argument is: we need to consider what is happening now, not what could be possible under some idealised hypothetical scenario. And right now more renewables, without more, or maintaining existing, nuclear means more base-load coal and more load-following gas.

The problems aren't really technical, they're political. Politics appears to be ill-equipped to deal with these problems.

Re: Why Germans won’t heat their homes even with free electricity?

#53

Post by jakub_g »

archgoon wrote: post #51
jakub_g wrote: post #32

I'm rather a noob in the topic, but I've been reading in recent months about energy market and it seems like a collective insanity in the light of the climate crisis. - In most(whole?) Europe, electricity used by trains is taxed higher than jet fuel used by planes (legacy measure from decades ago which was meant to boost air market; of course now it's hugely difficult to change it) - Germany went strongly into renewa…

> But even Macron wants to reduce nuclear % in power production of France. What? Why?

https://www.world-nuclear-news.org/Articles/Macron-clarifies...

Re: Why Germans won’t heat their homes even with free electricity?

#54

Post by tick_tock_tick »

jakub_g wrote: post #32

I'm rather a noob in the topic, but I've been reading in recent months about energy market and it seems like a collective insanity in the light of the climate crisis. - In most(whole?) Europe, electricity used by trains is taxed higher than jet fuel used by planes (legacy measure from decades ago which was meant to boost air market; of course now it's hugely difficult to change it) - Germany went strongly into renewa…

The German government and the EU as a whole is often much more focused on optics than data based solutions.

Re: Why Germans won’t heat their homes even with free electricity?

#55

Post by lispm »

jakub_g wrote: post #32

I'm rather a noob in the topic, but I've been reading in recent months about energy market and it seems like a collective insanity in the light of the climate crisis. - In most(whole?) Europe, electricity used by trains is taxed higher than jet fuel used by planes (legacy measure from decades ago which was meant to boost air market; of course now it's hugely difficult to change it) - Germany went strongly into renewa…

> Basically the effect of going away from nuclear is increasing CO2 emissions

Germany has been reducing CO2 emissions. Last year German CO2 emissions were shrinking by 7%.

> Macron wants to reduce nuclear % in power production of France. Which means more CO2.

When they increase renewables instead?

Re: Why Germans won’t heat their homes even with free electricity?

#56

Post by lispm »

archgoon wrote: post #51
jakub_g wrote: post #32

I'm rather a noob in the topic, but I've been reading in recent months about energy market and it seems like a collective insanity in the light of the climate crisis. - In most(whole?) Europe, electricity used by trains is taxed higher than jet fuel used by planes (legacy measure from decades ago which was meant to boost air market; of course now it's hugely difficult to change it) - Germany went strongly into renewa…

> But even Macron wants to reduce nuclear % in power production of France. What? Why?

Because the nuclear power plants are old and new nuclear power plants are more expensive than new renewable.

Re: Why Germans won’t heat their homes even with free electricity?

#57

Post by throwawaylolx »

Dumblydorr wrote: post #44
jakub_g wrote: post #32

I'm rather a noob in the topic, but I've been reading in recent months about energy market and it seems like a collective insanity in the light of the climate crisis. - In most(whole?) Europe, electricity used by trains is taxed higher than jet fuel used by planes (legacy measure from decades ago which was meant to boost air market; of course now it's hugely difficult to change it) - Germany went strongly into renewa…

There's a lot that can be done with renewables without nuclear or fossils, you can use demand response, batteries, hydro storage, and compressed air storage to store very cheap electricity.

This is just the typical diversion rhetoric. According to all IPCC reports I've seen, you can't accomplish with renewables without nuclear what you can accomplish with renewables and nuclear, yet all political bodies promote renewables and fossil fuels while pretending it's just renewables.

Re: Why Germans won’t heat their homes even with free electricity?

#58

Post by allendoerfer »

Gibbon1 wrote: post #42
endorphone wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bizarre that you were downvoted, when your point is spot on. Yes, heating with a big electric radiator is wasteful. Heating with a heat pump, on the other hand, is fantastically efficient.

Yes if you analyze it thermodynamically heating via natural gas is terrible. You're taking a high quality source of energy (a flame at 3500 degF) and turning it into the thermodynamic equivalent of garbage (hot air at 70 degF). All the work it could have done (say generating electricity) is tossed.

There is so much natural gas in Sibiria, due to climate change warming the permafrost, it will just escape into the atmosphere, before we come close to burning it all.

Re: Why Germans won’t heat their homes even with free electricity?

#59

Post by lispm »

Zenst wrote: post #21

I'm somewhat shocked that they do they not load those subsidies onto the electricity charge on consumers as a tax and mean those that use more, pay more. That's what they do in the UK, though alas they loaded it onto the standing charge that is a flat rate per day for having a supply. Idealy it should be like personal TAX, you have a certain amount you get without being taxed, then after that you pay X amount until y…

> I'm somewhat shocked that they do they not load those subsidies onto the electricity charge on consumers as a tax

German consumers pay 6.756 cents per kwh EEG tariff.

Re: Why Germans won’t heat their homes even with free electricity?

#60

Post by Brakenshire »

archgoon wrote: post #51
jakub_g wrote: post #32

I'm rather a noob in the topic, but I've been reading in recent months about energy market and it seems like a collective insanity in the light of the climate crisis. - In most(whole?) Europe, electricity used by trains is taxed higher than jet fuel used by planes (legacy measure from decades ago which was meant to boost air market; of course now it's hugely difficult to change it) - Germany went strongly into renewa…

> But even Macron wants to reduce nuclear % in power production of France. What? Why?

Because old nuclear power stations are coming to end of life, and new nuclear power stations appear to be ruinously expensive. See Flamanville which was supposed to be finished about 10 years and €10bn ago.

The real idiocy in Germany was retiring the nuclear plants before EOL. If you’re trying to work out whether to replace old nuclear with new it’s much less easy to come to a clear answer. Britain has had the same issue, most people are quite enthusiastic about new nuclear but it’s just really expensive.

It’s the issue with most of these small-n construction projects. Perhaps modular nuclear can be a solution.

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