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Why Germans won’t heat their homes even with free electricity?

kaikenhuippu.com

21–30 of 397 posts

Re: Why Germans won’t heat their homes even with free electricity?

#21
I'm somewhat shocked that they do they not load those subsidies onto the electricity charge on consumers as a tax and mean those that use more, pay more. That's what they do in the UK, though alas they loaded it onto the standing charge that is a flat rate per day for having a supply. Idealy it should be like personal TAX, you have a certain amount you get without being taxed, then after that you pay X amount until you use another threshold and then the tax upon the unit rate of energy is taxed more. That would be the ideal fair way of doing energy. Certainly would be a socially more acceptable way. Of course you can allocate people a higher initial rate they can use without paying tax upon the charge for things like disabilities, health needs etc. Again, be no simple solution, but working on something that sees it paid for fairly always works out best for all as above all, people love fairness. At least, that is how I'd like things done.

But do remember, Germany recently went thru an anti nuclear phase and that forced many coal reactors to carry on longer, so they did need to compensate and a push on solar and wind power was a logical move. How that was subsidies and paid for was and is perhaps an avenue they need to address.

All that said, much respect to the people of Germany for responsibly using energy. That has probably done way more than anything to help.

Re: Why Germans won’t heat their homes even with free electricity?

#22

Can somebody explain why electricity rates would go negative? That blows my mind. Edit: also why don’t they just mine some coins?

Because the German government is paying for renewables, via a tax on electricity, even when there is no additional demand.

They can't turn off power plants, because the renewables are ephemeral.

Re: Why Germans won’t heat their homes even with free electricity?

#23

Using electricity to heat buildings should be one of the last steps to take, after almost everything else using energy is renewable. Electricity is a precious form of energy, while heat is primitive. Converting in both directions is not lossless, so you want to keep the precious form. The author makes it seem like that the negative prices are constant, which is not the case. Germany also does not have 100% renewable…

I couldn't disagree more. Electric heating via heat pump is ridiculously efficient and has a much bigger bang for your carbon-reducing buck than anything else a homeowner can do.

Bizarre that you were downvoted, when your point is spot on.

Yes, heating with a big electric radiator is wasteful. Heating with a heat pump, on the other hand, is fantastically efficient.

Re: Why Germans won’t heat their homes even with free electricity?

#24

Using electricity to heat buildings should be one of the last steps to take, after almost everything else using energy is renewable. Electricity is a precious form of energy, while heat is primitive. Converting in both directions is not lossless, so you want to keep the precious form. The author makes it seem like that the negative prices are constant, which is not the case. Germany also does not have 100% renewable…

I couldn't disagree more. Electric heating via heat pump is ridiculously efficient and has a much bigger bang for your carbon-reducing buck than anything else a homeowner can do.

The term "electric" does mean something different when it comes to heating. Not a heat pump, but large resistors with low resistance.

Re: Why Germans won’t heat their homes even with free electricity?

#25

Using electricity to heat buildings should be one of the last steps to take, after almost everything else using energy is renewable. Electricity is a precious form of energy, while heat is primitive. Converting in both directions is not lossless, so you want to keep the precious form. The author makes it seem like that the negative prices are constant, which is not the case. Germany also does not have 100% renewable…

I couldn't disagree more. Electric heating via heat pump is ridiculously efficient and has a much bigger bang for your carbon-reducing buck than anything else a homeowner can do.

> Electric heating via heat pump is ridiculously efficient

Strictly speaking that's "electrically assisted" heating. What most people refer to as electric heating is the conversion of electricity directly into heat, eg. by a resistive element.

Re: Why Germans won’t heat their homes even with free electricity?

#27
post #5

Why not capture carbon from air with surplus energy? Build few capture plants and buy energy to keep price positive, then sell carbon cerificates on european market.

You'd have to do the math, but it might be because the surplus doesn't last long enough to pay for the equipment. Even if the prices were low enough for half the year, this means the equipment sits idle half the time. Most energy surpluses are shorter than that.

Yes, probably it would not be making enough money to sustain operation.

But I still think that we (as a world) should start capture carbon actively during this decade. Last summer in Europe was hottest yet and with such hot winter we are for even hotter summer this year. Keeping energy prices up would be just added benefit.

Re: Why Germans won’t heat their homes even with free electricity?

#28
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mess? Turn that around into an opportunity: charge for clean-energy-powered carbon capture.

I'm not sure I follow, charge ... who for what?

1) Implement a carbon tax (price on carbon)

2) Build a CCS Plant [1]

3) Run CCS plant using renewable energy. Charge your customers (people who need to offset their carbon footprint by buying carbon credits, such as big industry).

4) Profit

[1] http://www.ccsassociation.org/what-is-ccs/

Re: Why Germans won’t heat their homes even with free electricity?

#29

Can somebody explain why electricity rates would go negative? That blows my mind. Edit: also why don’t they just mine some coins?

This happens when the electricity supply is higher than the demand. It only affects the wholesale rate, not consumer rates (at least in Uk and US)

Normally supply and demand need to be matched to obtain a balance. If the supply is not enough for demand then the frequency drops below 50Hz, if it drops too low bad things happen.

Re: Why Germans won’t heat their homes even with free electricity?

#30

Using electricity to heat buildings should be one of the last steps to take, after almost everything else using energy is renewable. Electricity is a precious form of energy, while heat is primitive. Converting in both directions is not lossless, so you want to keep the precious form. The author makes it seem like that the negative prices are constant, which is not the case. Germany also does not have 100% renewable…

I couldn't disagree more. Electric heating via heat pump is ridiculously efficient and has a much bigger bang for your carbon-reducing buck than anything else a homeowner can do.

The issue with heat pumps is you may need far less heat at 15c when their very efficient than at -15c when their not. Couple that with the losses from heat to electricity at power plants and burning natural gas at home is about as efficient on average depending on your area.

So, it really does depend on how cold it gets where you are if it’s better to burn fuel at home or at a powerplant.

PS: Solar hot water heaters are generally the best overall option any place heat pumps are actually efficient.

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