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Almost everything on computers is perceptually slower than it was in 1983 (2017)

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Re: Almost everything on computers is perceptually slower than it was in 1983 (2017)

#321
post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> so I've noticed that I do want a map that works like a map - something I can explore and annotate. I don't doubt that there are use cases for a map that works this way. Even if Google Maps covers 80-90% of the use-cases for mapping, mapping is an absolutely massive domain. 10-20% of use-cases still represents a huge volume. But it doesn't have to be Google Maps. It actually seems worse to be for one "maps" app try…

pretty much all games in the early 80's had [so called] pixel perfect scrolling. Each frame showed exactly what was required. Today it is entirely acceptable for a map to be a jerky stuttering pile of crap. The same goes for the infinite scroll implementations. Its preposterous to start loading things after they are needed. There is a good analogy with making things in the physical world. The professional doesn't sta…

Games have huge advantages of constraint of application that mapping applications don't. You can get pixel perfect scrolling when you constrain the max rate the user can pass through the dataset, you deny them random access into the dataset, your dataset isn't trying to represent a space the volume of planet Earth, etc.

There's a huge gulf between the use cases you're comparing here, and I don't believe for one second that loading the Google Maps dataset into Commander Keene's engine would make for a better experience.

(Also, not to be overly pedantic, but "The professional doesn't start a job before he has everything he needs to do it" pretty much classifies all building construction as unprofessional. The professional doesn't magically have everything on-hand, especially bulky or expensive resources; they have a plan for acquiring them at reasonable rates of input and mitigation strategies if that plan can't be followed)

Re: Almost everything on computers is perceptually slower than it was in 1983 (2017)

#322
post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are other bottlenecks. RAM bandwidth and speed, network latency, display sound like the most important. If that 133MHz pentium rendered a web page, it did so at 640×400 pixels, right? 16 colours? Or just in text? So it had to process about 4k (if text) or 128k (if graphics). Your current display involves a little more data. RAM access takes about 10ns now, it took longer back then but not very much longer. Your…

My current display does include a lot more data. It's also driven by a graphics card with more RAM than I had HDD space back in the day with a dedicated CPU that's also a whole lot faster than 133MHz. Every piece of hardware is better but software has bloated up to remove those speed gains, except when it comes to things like AAA games where they're still pushing the envelope. That's the only place you can actually t…

The increase in video RAM requires more of the CPU and GPU. Downloading and displaying a JPEG at today's resolution requires more of everything, not just video RAM.

Anyway, If you come to over to the server side you can see other code that performs very differently than it could have back in 1983. Sometimes unimaginably different — how would a service like tineye.com have been implemented a few decades ago?

Re: Almost everything on computers is perceptually slower than it was in 1983 (2017)

#323
post #70

Yes, for a good long while UIs were improving and the last few years I'm fighting most of my computers to stay as usable as they were a decade+ ago. And it's usually a losing battle wherever a terminal isn't available, most painfully on the phone. Online stores have less and less useful categories and filters. Ubuntu's take on Gnome is a weak version of their Unity DE and much less efficient on smaller screens. Googl…

> Online stores have less and less useful categories and filters.

Yes, I agree. But at the same time, F-Droid has only improved.

Re: Almost everything on computers is perceptually slower than it was in 1983 (2017)

#324

What about color-grading video? Photos? Backing up all of your family slides, negatives, and portraits? Learning to program for free on your own time? Get out of here with this spotlight-y maga-esque ridiculousness.

> Learning to program for free on your own time?

We have been doing this for many decades.

Re: Almost everything on computers is perceptually slower than it was in 1983 (2017)

#325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> These posts fondly remember just the speed, but always seem to forget the frustrations, or re-imagine them to be something we treasured. More to the point, I grew up with early Windows XP computers and early 90s Internet, and I don't remember the speed. Maybe I'm just too young and things were magically faster in the 80s? Maybe I was born just slightly before everything took a giant nosedive and became crap? There…

> More to the point, I grew up with early Windows XP computers and early 90s Internet He is talking about running local software before mainstream internet was a thing. That is, locally installed software without a single line of network code in them. MS Word started faster on my dads Motorola based Mac with a 7MHz CPU and super-slow spinning rust-drives than it does on my current PC with a 4GHz CPU and more L3 cache…

But is software getting worse or better?

Even from a premise that the introduction of networking and graphical GUIs was a huge mistake that caused software quality to plummet dramatically, a lot of modern software today is still faster and better designed than the software I had as a kid.

I can maybe accept that I got born at the wrong time and everything before that point was magical and wonderful. I never used early DOS word processors so I can't speak to whether the many features we have today are a worthwhile tradeoff for the startup speed. I'll have to take your word for it.

But if people want to say that we're actively making stuff worse today, they're skipping over a massive chunk of history. If you look at the overall trend of how computers have changed since the 90's, I think literally the worst thing you could say is that we are still recovering from a software quality crash. People either forget or dismiss that a lot of early 90s software was really, really bad -- both in terms of performance and UX.

From the original post:

> amber-screen library computer in 1998: type in two words and hit F3. search results appear instantly. now: type in two words, wait for an AJAX popup. get a throbber for five seconds. oops you pressed a key, your results are erased

I'm still calling bull on this, because I also used 1998 Library computers and a lot of them were garbage. And I've used modern Library search engines, and while they're not great, a good many of them have substantially improved since then. This is a rose-colored view of history based off of individual/anecdotal experiences.

I'm not wildly optimistic about everything in the software ecosystem today. I do wish some things were simpler, I do see systemic problems. But holy crap, HN is so universally cynical about computing right now, and I feel like there's a real loss of perspective. There are tons of reasons to be at least somewhat optimistic about the direction of computing.

Re: Almost everything on computers is perceptually slower than it was in 1983 (2017)

#326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can never really make a map for "exploring" because what people want to explore is domain specific. Do you want to explore mountains? Do you want to explore museums, do you want to explore beaches? There is too much stuff in the world to present on a map without absolutely overwhelming people, in the same way that the internet is too vast to "explore". You can't explore the internet from google search you've got…

> There is too much stuff in the world to present on a map without absolutely overwhelming people Nevertheless, I think that Google Maps et al. typically show far too little on the screen. My Dad tells me that he still prefers paper maps because he doesn't have to fiddle around with the zoom level to get things to show up. While I'm sure that Google has more data on most places than it could fit in a small window, wh…

In a world where you can plot a pin of yourself via gps on the map the need for street names, building names e.t.c. at higher zoom levels just doesn't matter because you don't need it to figure out where you actually are, with paper maps you did.

If adding that information to the map serves no need anymore but clutters it up, why do it?

Re: Almost everything on computers is perceptually slower than it was in 1983 (2017)

#327

What about color-grading video? Photos? Backing up all of your family slides, negatives, and portraits? Learning to program for free on your own time? Get out of here with this spotlight-y maga-esque ridiculousness.

> Learning to program for free on your own time? We have been doing this for many decades.

Maybe a small select group have been. Do you really believe that the resources available in 1983 are even in the same category as the current ones? Come on.

Re: Almost everything on computers is perceptually slower than it was in 1983 (2017)

#329

As the OP who wrote this while drunk two years ago and thinks that about 30-50% of it is objectively wrong, it's extremely funny to me that every five months someone reposts it here and everyone gets in a fight about it again. Many of the details are entirely inaccurate - the thesis is still completely valid, and it's Computer Person Thinking that wants to attack the details while refusing to stand back and look at t…

> the thesis is still completely valid, and it's Computer Person Thinking that wants to attack the details while refusing to stand back and look at the overall picture, which is that using computers is now an incredibly messy experience where nothing quite does what you want, nothing can be predicted, nothing can be learned.

FWIW, I don't care about the details, there are plenty individual examples of bad design today and slower software. I disagree completely with your larger thesis that things have gotten worse, and with the title in particular as a summary of your point. Why do you feel it's completely valid, and what does that mean exactly if you agree that many of the supporting examples are wrong?

And I also disagree with characterizing people who disagree with you as "Computer Person Thinking" and "Stockholm Syndrome". That charge seems doubly ironic, quite hypocritical, given the content of your tweet-storm, but I understand if you're feeling a bit attacked or defensive about this discussion. It's okay that it wasn't all true, and if this causes discussion that seems annoying, at least it's a discussion. We can continue to improve software and hardware and UX, and it's good to discuss it. It's just not true that it's gotten worse, and you don't really need to crap on today's software or the people who disagree with you to prove the point that we still have room for improvement. There's always room for improvement.

Anyway, computing is objectively faster today than in 1983 (I was there), and not by a little, by orders of magnitude, especially if you are fair and compare functionality apples to apples, but even if you only tally wait times for activities that seem similar on the surface but are completely different today (such as in-memory queries vs internet queries).

I don't see much objective data or measured results in your UX argument on the whole. Arguing that function keys are intuitive and that the mouse is useless is pure opinion based on what you like and being used to something, not something that can be shown by any large scale user studies to date, and history has already somewhat demonstrated the opposite, that many people prefer mice navigation to keyboards, and that function key workflows are for experts, not Twitter users, by and large.

Re: Almost everything on computers is perceptually slower than it was in 1983 (2017)

#330
post #22
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you can easily setup a command line interface or Linux system and move blazing fast. Maybe the HN crowd can but not your average or median computer users > I remember turning on the computer and waiting for the motherboard company logo to finish flashing I still have computers that take some time to boot. Issue is, I just rarely power off/on. Instead the computers go to sleep which if much faster to come out of. Of…

> Maybe the HN crowd can but not your average or median computer users The median computer user and use cases from 1983 to 2020 are very different.

I wasn't writing software or using computers in 1983. But, my uses cases in 1990 were pretty close to my personal use cases today. 1990, I think, was the year I wrote my first word processor. So I could write, save, edit, and share documents.
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