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Goodbye to academic research

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Re: Goodbye to academic research

#61

Post by bd »

timr wrote: post #56
bd wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"It also probably works against you in most parts of the tech industry, where there's a surprising amount of blind opposition to anyone with a doctorate." I didn't encounter any doctorate-opposition per se. I think it's more opportunity cost issue. Tech industry is quite meritocratic. Problem for many people with PhDs is that this is the only thing they can show after many years spent hidden in academia, working on e…

Let's be clear: I'm not complaining, nor am I talking about personal experiences of discrimination -- I don't know if my resume has ever been circular-filed because of my degree. But since I left academia I have been surprised by the number of people who have explicitly told me that they consider a PhD to be a black mark on a resume. I think a lot of people have had one or two bad experiences interviewing/hiring PhDs…

I meant no offense.

Fully agree with what you said - there is a lot of sampling bias because of relative rarity of PhDs (few bad apples can completely color expectations).

It was quite a surprise for me when doing a summer program at major US corporation and everybody was going gaga because our group had many PhDs.

In academia, everybody has doctorate, so degree in itself doesn't really confer any additional signal.

In industry, people take it as a signal even when it is not (person matters more than degree, the same person would be hireable / not-hireable whether having or not having degree).

But anyways, you wouldn't want to work at places / for people which can't / don't take such things into account.

That's why I mentioned meritocracy - it's nicer to work at places where it matters only if you can get the job done, not your degree / pedigree / who-you-know.

But yeah, human nature, hard to fight against, we all like signaling (it's useful heuristics after all).

Re: Goodbye to academic research

#63

Post by ryanjmo »

So, I often have to justify the time I spent getting a PhD in computer science (Cryptography), because I have a start-up that programs Facebook Apps now a days.

The only reason I can, is because I really didn't spend that much time actually working during the whole period and spent a lot of time learning to surf and play tennis well.

I really feel like I learned a lot of valuable lessons from learning to play tennis and to surf. I'm really glad my PhD afforded me time and money to make that possible.

Re: Goodbye to academic research

#64

Post by elai »

NY_USA_Hacker wrote: post #60
chime wrote: post #4

Reading this article makes me realize I certainly picked the road not taken. Last year I quit my job as the Director of IT at a small pharma, dropped out of a company-paid MBA program, drastically reduced my expenses, and started doing independent research. A lot of people around me thought I was crazy especially since I wasn't going the PhD or startup route either. In my mind though, it seems pretty logical - I want…

You wrote: "I know I won't get a degree out of this and I doubt I can get published" Sorry to disagree! :-)! For getting published, try some journal on human-computer interaction. Since you know much more about your field than I do, look for other journal 'varieties' as well. For what you are doing, that is, a lot of independent, call it, R&D, if you get results anything like what you want, then it would be surprisin…

Thank you for the very useful comment, but why do you have so many uh words in your comment?

Re: Goodbye to academic research

#65

Post by jeffdavis »

narkee wrote: post #8

I've observed that success in an academic environment requires more than simply scientific acumen. It also requires relentless self-promotion, networking and a passion not only for science, but for winning the academic game. There are a lot of good science minded people, and there are a lot of good, driven self-promoters. Most successful scientists you encounter (apart from the odd genius) belong in the intersection…

Well, some amount of self-promotion is necessary for success almost anywhere.

Sure, if you come up with something miraculous, then it markets itself. But otherwise you have to make sure that the right group of people knows about it or your idea will just fade away.

Re: Goodbye to academic research

#67

Post by NY_USA_Hacker »

elai wrote: post #64
NY_USA_Hacker wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You wrote: "I know I won't get a degree out of this and I doubt I can get published" Sorry to disagree! :-)! For getting published, try some journal on human-computer interaction. Since you know much more about your field than I do, look for other journal 'varieties' as well. For what you are doing, that is, a lot of independent, call it, R&D, if you get results anything like what you want, then it would be surprisin…

Thank you for the very useful comment, but why do you have so many uh words in your comment?

Each indicates a non-standard, somewhat politically incorrect, 'street-wise', hush-hush, secret of the real world remark!

Re: Goodbye to academic research

#68

Post by lazyjeff »

NY_USA_Hacker wrote: post #60
chime wrote: post #4

Reading this article makes me realize I certainly picked the road not taken. Last year I quit my job as the Director of IT at a small pharma, dropped out of a company-paid MBA program, drastically reduced my expenses, and started doing independent research. A lot of people around me thought I was crazy especially since I wasn't going the PhD or startup route either. In my mind though, it seems pretty logical - I want…

You wrote: "I know I won't get a degree out of this and I doubt I can get published" Sorry to disagree! :-)! For getting published, try some journal on human-computer interaction. Since you know much more about your field than I do, look for other journal 'varieties' as well. For what you are doing, that is, a lot of independent, call it, R&D, if you get results anything like what you want, then it would be surprisin…

This is a very interesting comment. It reads a bit like "phd hacking". Did you try this? The work done by the OP is indeed has potential to be published. The above comment, while written in an encouraging tone, has some caveats that might be worth pointing out.

"(1) At at least some of the best US research universities, there is no coursework requirement for a Ph.D."

* I find that to be untrue. In my case, I had a M.S. before applying, and still had to take nearly 2 years of required coursework. It depends on the program, but I have not heard of any U.S. program that will accept a B.S. and not have required classes.

"(2) The requirement for a dissertation is, say, "an original contribution to knowledge worthy of publication". Since you've already been there, done that, got the T-shirt, there's no question. Big, huge advantage."

* Most students accepted to the best PhD programs (computer science) will already have top-tier publications before entering. It is definitely a good thing to have a publication, but rather than being finished, you will have just begun.

"(3) One more requirement would likely be the qualifying exams. These exams are to show that you are 'qualified' to move on to research and do research. But, uh, did I mention that you've already been there, done that, got the T-shirt?"

* Quals will still require reading deeply from the literature. You will be expected to know all the fundamentals in your computer science area to pass. Having published is irrelevant here.

"Maybe the US DoD VA would give you a grant."

* Often only professors can apply for the big grants, and writing a grant is actually non-trivial. They need to see a fantastic track record, a solid proven team, and often nods to diversity and educating the public. Some students will help their advisors write the grant, but in the end it's the advisor who doles out the money and is the PI.

I feel the attitude of professors/academia being so easy to fool to be somewhat overstated here. I won't go into the "ease of publishing" comments, but my first top-tier publication took 3 years with many rejections, when I was an a non-student doing research. I also did a lot of research that was rejected and went into the "paper graveyard". After doing it a few times, publishing is significantly easier since you will better know the methodology, literature, and how to write academically. I'm not trying to be discouraging, but I find the above comment to be optimistic but a bit exaggerated.

Re: Goodbye to academic research

#69

Post by marknutter »

When I graduated with my degree in physics, I was introduced to something called Ruby on Rails, and instead of go on to grad school I pivoted into the life of a web developer. Best thing that ever happened to me.

Re: Goodbye to academic research

#70

Post by barry-cotter »

lazyjeff wrote: post #68
NY_USA_Hacker wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You wrote: "I know I won't get a degree out of this and I doubt I can get published" Sorry to disagree! :-)! For getting published, try some journal on human-computer interaction. Since you know much more about your field than I do, look for other journal 'varieties' as well. For what you are doing, that is, a lot of independent, call it, R&D, if you get results anything like what you want, then it would be surprisin…

This is a very interesting comment. It reads a bit like "phd hacking". Did you try this? The work done by the OP is indeed has potential to be published. The above comment, while written in an encouraging tone, has some caveats that might be worth pointing out. "(1) At at least some of the best US research universities, there is no coursework requirement for a Ph.D." * I find that to be untrue. In my case, I had a M.…

I find that to be untrue. In my case, I had a M.S. before applying, and still had to take nearly 2 years of required coursework. It depends on the program, but I have not heard of any U.S. program that will accept a B.S. and not have required classes.*

Then go to the U.K. or the majority of the commonwealth. Required coursework is not a necessary part of doctoral research in many, many departments of these universities.

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