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I Worked for a Criminal Organization

openmonstervision.github.io

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Re: I Worked for a Criminal Organization

#151

Post by spottybanana »

nkrisc wrote: post #130
normalnorm wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Am I the only one getting depressed with all the excuses and rationalizations in this thread? It's the same with "adtech" and the like... "Hey, I'm not killing anyone, what's the harm?" Technology has the potential to raise humanity above its current conditions and limitations. But we can't have it, because we are selfish and short-sighted monkeys. Take a big dump on all the ideals if this delivers the paycheck. "Bus…

The issue is when people try to stack-rank the "badness" of crimes. "Is bankrupting a thousand people through fraud worse than killing someone?" The answer is: it doesn't matter which is worse. Both destroy lives in different ways. Fraud and spam are crimes that ruin lives in their own ways.

> The answer is: it doesn't matter which is worse. Both destroy lives in different ways.

Though it is very natural for people to think "how bad I am" or "how bad is that company compared to the other companies" and so on. Also in the end the justice system has to sentence these crimes and there has to be some kind of "badness" metric that should be seen as fair by the general public. I don't think this "they are all just crimes" approach works.

Re: I Worked for a Criminal Organization

#152

Post by distances »

spottybanana wrote: post #116
TeMPOraL wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's plenty of such people. Most that I met are simultaneously unhappy about giving their government the money, and very happy to use all the services provided by the government from that money[0]. I would appreciate their views more if their argument involved pointing out that nobody asked them to sign the social contract, and that they have no meaningful way to opt out. But very few of such people I talked to ra…

On the other hand there are lots of people happily receiving all their money from government, and also using all the public services as well. For example those having a job* at government or receiving benefits from government. Note that it is still pretty much impossible to run a business without paying any taxes, in the end you have to pay some but you might be able to evade some. In the end it is just endless debat…

> When people don't feel their taxes are fair, they start to evade those. They might be also just greedy bastards, but I don't think that's necessarily commonly the case.

No, normal people do not. Tax evasion is a serious crime. People don't start doing criminal acts when they just feel something "isn't fair".

Re: I Worked for a Criminal Organization

#153

Post by AndrewThrowaway »

speedplane wrote: post #104
scandox wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a funny one because it's potentially one of the most serious crimes. You're stealing from everybody, undermining the basis of trust in the entire system in which we live and probably in the long term eroding the basis of democracy. You're creating a non-level playing field. On the other hand, black and grey market activity are also I think quite an important counter-balance to the possibility of totalitarian gov…

> black and grey market activity are also I think quite an important counter-balance to the possibility of totalitarian government. I don't really buy this: plenty of totalitarian regimes have illegal black markets, that governments often tolerate because they don't see a threat to their power. A better way to counter a totalitarian government is via open communication and coordination of the government's subjects. G…

> governments often tolerate because they don't see a threat to their power

I would say it is often even opposite of it - black/grey markets help to stay in power. When everybody is breaking some law, buying something [almost] illegally, everybody wants to stay quiet.

And it helps [totalitarian] government a lot.

Re: I Worked for a Criminal Organization

#154

Post by dsfyu404ed »

samplatt wrote: post #51
bArray wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A shop replaced my failed catalytic converter ($1200+ > replacement) with a straight pipe ($20 pipe and $200 of > time) many years ago because they (correctly) assessed me > to be a broke-ass student who wouldn't tell on them. The mechanic may have even made even more money by scrapping your catalytic converter. In the UK, swapping the exhaust out for a straight pipe is a common (illegal) modification for greater p…

>The mechanic may have even made even more money by scrapping your catalytic converter. Oh, certainly. Not to mention that removing it would have been a larger & more difficult job, which I'd have to pay for... OR they can get less money but it's (very) easy money. >completely removing the air-filter (dangerous) Good god... Who the hell does that? What ricer would willingly risk killing their motor from eating some l…

>Good god... Who the hell does that? What ricer would willingly risk killing their motor from eating some leaves (or a piece of gravel!) for a minuscule performance increase? The risk:reward scale there is just bananas.

Statistically nobody but every mechanic remembers the story of "that one idiot".

Re: I Worked for a Criminal Organization

#155

Post by Kaiyou »

jackcodes wrote: post #118
PappaPatat wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My first sale of my selfwritten software (about 35 years ago) was for a car driving instructor. The initial sales conversations where difficult. I thought they did not see the advantages of having their planning & bookkeeping in a computer... How wrong I was. It was their "creative bookkeeping" that worried them. When I offered to make that all possible ('zapping' as it is called now), they loved it. Based on their r…

I know that taxes ultimately don’t result in lost schools and hospitals, as it’s never that 1:1, but do you ever think you could have cost your country a hospital, a new road, or a new warhead or whatever?

Taxes are pretty much theft at gunpoint, so I imagine nobody losing sleep over dealing with it in an appropriate way.

Re: I Worked for a Criminal Organization

#156

Post by cryptica »

skrebbel wrote: post #67
PappaPatat wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My first sale of my selfwritten software (about 35 years ago) was for a car driving instructor. The initial sales conversations where difficult. I thought they did not see the advantages of having their planning & bookkeeping in a computer... How wrong I was. It was their "creative bookkeeping" that worried them. When I offered to make that all possible ('zapping' as it is called now), they loved it. Based on their r…

Did it bother you that you were facilitating crimes?

The reality is that pretty much everyone these days facilitates some kind of crime or unethical conduct in one way or another. Either intentionally or unintentionally and either actively through collaboration or passively through inaction. Aaron Swartz was spot on when he wrote about "The intentionality of Evil" - http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/intentionalevil - This has become the biggest problem of our age.

Even a lot of the things that are legal these days are extremely unethical. The system is a mess. Capitalism is destroying society, rewarding bad behavior and punishing good behavior.

All the good companies/projects I worked on over the years (e.g. education) are struggling in this economy while all the evil ones (gambling, finance) are thriving.

Communism is looking better with each passing day. Especially with the level of automation we have today.

Every day, automation is getting better but people are getting worse. The systemic inefficiencies caused by fraud and other unethical behaviors under capitalism has outpaced the inefficiencies of a communist society whereby everyone gets paid the same and each person does as little work as possible.

Re: I Worked for a Criminal Organization

#157

Post by Frondo »

Kaiyou wrote: post #155
jackcodes wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know that taxes ultimately don’t result in lost schools and hospitals, as it’s never that 1:1, but do you ever think you could have cost your country a hospital, a new road, or a new warhead or whatever?

Taxes are pretty much theft at gunpoint, so I imagine nobody losing sleep over dealing with it in an appropriate way.

Taxes are not theft, they are an agreed-upon payment for being a member of a society.

Your parents, as guardians of a newborn, made your initial decision for you to bring you into the society.

You maintained your consent by retaining your citizenship when you reached an age of majority.

Taxes are the price you pay for retaining the benefits of your citizenship.

Not theft.

Re: I Worked for a Criminal Organization

#158

Post by cat199 »

frandroid wrote: post #31
hackermailman wrote: post #13

Not uncommon in some cities in Canada to find out you're working for a criminal outfit if writing point of sale/restaurant software where they want you to produce one receipt for the customer and a different one for the restaurant or salon or shady car mechanic that then pockets the unreported tax aka a 'zapper'. Profitek was busted once, InfoSpec Systems, zappers are in high demand

No wonder the Québec government swooped in and mandated a government POS terminal for the food service industry. :)

> government POS terminal for the food service industry. :)

and how did procurement for that contract go?

Re: I Worked for a Criminal Organization

#159

Post by Aqueous »

PappaPatat wrote: post #63
hackermailman wrote: post #13

Not uncommon in some cities in Canada to find out you're working for a criminal outfit if writing point of sale/restaurant software where they want you to produce one receipt for the customer and a different one for the restaurant or salon or shady car mechanic that then pockets the unreported tax aka a 'zapper'. Profitek was busted once, InfoSpec Systems, zappers are in high demand

My first sale of my selfwritten software (about 35 years ago) was for a car driving instructor. The initial sales conversations where difficult. I thought they did not see the advantages of having their planning & bookkeeping in a computer... How wrong I was. It was their "creative bookkeeping" that worried them. When I offered to make that all possible ('zapping' as it is called now), they loved it. Based on their r…

seems like you were and are helping your customers commit tax fraud and should stop

Re: I Worked for a Criminal Organization

#160

Post by leetcrew »

Frondo wrote: post #157
Kaiyou wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Taxes are pretty much theft at gunpoint, so I imagine nobody losing sleep over dealing with it in an appropriate way.

Taxes are not theft, they are an agreed-upon payment for being a member of a society. Your parents, as guardians of a newborn, made your initial decision for you to bring you into the society. You maintained your consent by retaining your citizenship when you reached an age of majority. Taxes are the price you pay for retaining the benefits of your citizenship. Not theft.

this is sort of like the "wage slavery is consensual because both sides agreed" argument. what realistic alternative does someone who doesn't consent to taxation have? renouncing US citizenship triggers a large tax on the total value of your assets if you are wealthy. even if you're not wealthy, the US charges a flat fee of about $2000 for the process. you might literally be unable to afford renouncing your citizenship.

even after that, the IRS can come back and harass you at any time if they suspect you of tax fraud, and most foreign countries will cooperate with them.

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