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Tesla teardown finds electronics 6 years ahead of Toyota and VW

asia.nikkei.com

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Re: Tesla teardown finds electronics 6 years ahead of Toyota and VW

#441

Post by xedeon »

blacklion wrote: post #280
ec109685 wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Auto pilot still works when you restart the infotainment and display system (holding two buttons on the steering wheel down), so the systems aren’t powered by the same OS.

It is only half of the story. I was almost sure, that ECU and Infotaiment runs on different CPUs under different OSes. Question is, what do they share? Same bus? Some memory area? Or only something like I2C? I could imagine situation, when hacked infotaiment system overloads power supply, and if power supply is shared, it takes down ECU too, for example. I hope, Tesla's engineers better than that.

> that ECU and Infotaiment runs on different CPUs under different OSes. Question is, what do they share? Same bus? Some memory area? Or only something like I2C?

That's not how auto engineering works. Read up on Controller Area Network (CAN)Bus. Tesla MCUs (Touchscreen) are on a completely separate sub-system from the power-train/braking systems.

> I hope, Tesla's engineers better than that. Sure. Most of Tesla engineers came from other auto manufacturers. Lot's of them were form the UK during the development of the Model S.

Re: Tesla teardown finds electronics 6 years ahead of Toyota and VW

#442

Post by xedeon »

CrazyStat wrote: post #186
tyingq wrote: post #21

I thought there was, though, previous discussion of Tesla using non-automotive grade electronics in places. Using stuff that's rated for the heat, moisture, vibration, etc, implies lag time as opposed to "latest/greatest".

The big screen is the common example of this, as they couldn't source an automative-grade screen that big. It's suffered several issues due to heat and UV exposure.

The screen is automotive grade. The yellow discoloration has been traced back to a supplier changing the adhesive chemistry on the LCD panel to save cost.

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/yellow-borders-on-ma...

https://forums.tesla.com/forum/forums/mcu-touch-screen-yello...

Re: Tesla teardown finds electronics 6 years ahead of Toyota and VW

#443

Post by sliken »

rootusrootus wrote: post #360
rblatz wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Turns out that the average consumer of $40k+ EVs doesn’t give a shit about minor cosmetic issues if the rest of the car is years ahead of the competition. Maybe there is a lesson in there about always questioning priorities to ensure they are inline with the market.

There are other good EVs, and more in the pipeline. I think it would be more accurate to say that Tesla fans don't care much about minor cosmetic issues, because ... they're fans. This makes sense.

Drive a Tesla, I bet you'll find things you like that are way more important than minor cosmetic issues, which seems unlikely.

Sure when making cars at 5k a week or more, there's some mistakes. A friend had a piece of trim misaligned. Tesla came out, on site, and fixed it. He's pretty happy.

Re: Tesla teardown finds electronics 6 years ahead of Toyota and VW

#444

Post by xedeon »

threeseed wrote: post #310
pacaro wrote: post #131

It feels to me like there is a symmetry of arrogance here. Traditional car companies are finding that making an electric car is hard (emphasis on electric) Tesla is finding that making an electric car is hard (emphasis on car)

Car companies aren't finding making an electric car hard at all. Taycan is by most reviews the best EV car out there. And we have EVs from BMW, Hyundai, Kia, Mercedes, Volvo, VW etc already being sold today in pretty sizeable numbers. The problem is (a) getting enough battery supply, (b) convincing consumers to buy them, (c) getting the costs down and (d) the somewhat lacklustre growth in EV demand.

> Taycan is by most reviews the best EV car out there

Citation needed.

Re: Tesla teardown finds electronics 6 years ahead of Toyota and VW

#445

Post by philwelch »

sliken wrote: post #439
philwelch wrote: post #382

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s in the same price range as an Audi A4, Mercedes C300, BMW i3, Audi TT, and Lexus ES. It’s an entry level luxury car. It’s twice as expensive as a Volkswagen Jetta, Toyota Corolla, or Honda Civic.

Yes, true. But generally electrics are much cheaper to own. Assume 12k miles a year and figure the cost to own for 10 years. Might be higher than the corolla or civic, but similar or better than the accord or camry. Generally it will be quicker, quieter, and safer than the competition and most (that can) would rather plug in at home than regularly visit gas stations. So model 3 might be a luxury car, but the cost to…

A Camry costs around $24,000. $16,000 worth of gas, at $2.4 per gallon, times the EPA 34mpg combined gas mileage of the 2020 Camry, is good for over 200,000 miles. And that's assuming that the power to charge your car is completely free--it isn't, even though it's less than the price of gas on a per-mile basis.

Re: Tesla teardown finds electronics 6 years ahead of Toyota and VW

#446

Post by vardump »

t0mas88 wrote: post #384
vardump wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because I noticed I was accepting a lot of things from them that I would never have from BMW or Audi. Could you elaborate a bit, please? I'd like to know what I'd miss if I chose Tesla.

Interior: - Quality in general with a lot of rattling sounds and cheap materials. Asked them to fix a few of these, service was super friendly, but they never really got it fixed. Not easy to describe but the magnitude of this is really worse than a low-end VW. Which is super annoying if you live in a place with non-perfect streets. (And the engines being quite makes it worse because it's more noticeable) - Seats wer…

Thank you for the list.

Re: Tesla teardown finds electronics 6 years ahead of Toyota and VW

#447

Post by sliken »

philwelch wrote: post #445
sliken wrote: post #439

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, true. But generally electrics are much cheaper to own. Assume 12k miles a year and figure the cost to own for 10 years. Might be higher than the corolla or civic, but similar or better than the accord or camry. Generally it will be quicker, quieter, and safer than the competition and most (that can) would rather plug in at home than regularly visit gas stations. So model 3 might be a luxury car, but the cost to…

A Camry costs around $24,000. $16,000 worth of gas, at $2.4 per gallon, times the EPA 34mpg combined gas mileage of the 2020 Camry, is good for over 200,000 miles. And that's assuming that the power to charge your car is completely free--it isn't, even though it's less than the price of gas on a per-mile basis.

Around $24k, good luck finding one of those on the lot. At toyota.com the Camry pictured is $35,555.

Over 200k miles How much will you spend on brake pads? Brake Discs? Gas? How about the scheduled 40 Oil changes?

How about things outside of the regular maintenance? Belts? Catalytic converts? Timing chain? Engine mounts? Head gaskets? Spark plugs? Clutch?

How many miles will you burn driving to/from gas stations?

How much of your time worth finding, using, and returning from gas stations? Do you really want to visit a smelly gas station covered with signs about the cancer it causes (in California anyways)?

Sure a Tesla over 200k miles will burn a fair amount of power around 50,000 kwh (75 kwh per 300 miles or so). But the other consumables are few. Sure wipers, tires (replacement and rotation), cabin filters, windshield fluid, etc. But generally the electric motors have few parts, are extremely reliable, and don't require any regularly scheduled maintenance.

I've had 2 Subarus and a low end Acura Integra. And most maintenance I've had (except tires/and wipers) was for something that didn't exist on an electric car. Timing chains, spark plugs, oil changes, head gasket, catalytic converter, engine mounts, clutch, etc.

Re: Tesla teardown finds electronics 6 years ahead of Toyota and VW

#448

Post by Dylan16807 »

SEJeff wrote: post #416
rootusrootus wrote: post #414

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're fanboying for Tesla. The car is pulling as much juice as a gaming rig. The doorbell uses like three orders of magnitude less power. And what do I get for all that power it's consuming? It routinely misses cars and people literally inches away. Sometimes it records, sometimes it doesn't. And lately my car has decided 90% of the time not to turn on the dashcam, though sentry mode activates pretty reliably. It's…

You sidestepped my questions. Does your doorbell have one or eight cameras? Even if tesla did it as efficiently as your camera, it would be, at a minimum, eight times more energy. If they do anything fancy with a neural network (which they almost certainly do), they it might be another 2x the power. Then you have 10x the power which is one order of magnitude. Quit making false comparisons to your crappy doorbell. It…

> You sidestepped my questions.

No they didn't. First off it doesn't need to use all eight cameras, but "three orders of magnitude" is obviously way more than 8x.

> If they do anything fancy with a neural network (which they almost certainly do), they it might be another 2x the power.

If it takes more power to do the same calculations, that's a bad thing, not a defense.

> Then you have 10x the power which is one order of magnitude.

"It does it super inefficiently, and then uses 10x power on top of that somehow" is awful!

Also you're rounding way down.

The comparison to the doorbell makes a lot of sense, and "not working the same" is irrelevant to the complaint.

Re: Tesla teardown finds electronics 6 years ahead of Toyota and VW

#449

Post by norswap »

bcrosby95 wrote: post #112
norswap wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Considering how much money went into the making of the real Tesla, is that really something these big auto-makers could have afforded?

Most of that money went into things the big auto makers already had rather than anything particularly unique to Tesla.

On the whole, fair point.

In particular, the article talk about supply line disruption. Rebuilding your supply lines means you can't use the existing ones, and that's certain not to be cheap either.

Re: Tesla teardown finds electronics 6 years ahead of Toyota and VW

#450

Post by swiley »

perl4ever wrote: post #236
rusticpenn wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

automotive electronics has a different set of requirements from normal electronics. Most ecus are designed by Bosch, Delphi or some big company in the field.

Only if you want them to last 20 years - if that's not the expectation of your customers, there is a massive opportunity. Figuring out new ways to eliminate uneconomic quality is an ongoing revolution everywhere.

Yeah that’s why GM has been doing so well.
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