Kickstarter employees vote to unionize • Hacker News Board

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#681

Post by kerkeslager » Tue, Feb 18, 2020, 9:25 PM UTC

TylerE wrote: post #651

kerkeslager wrote: post #646

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, frankly, fsk free snacks. Pay me the money you were going to spend on snacks, and I'll choose whether to spend it on snacks or not. And since the money spent on free snacks was probably about $20/week, it won't be a significant consideration in any of my decisions. Bus service might be more significant in some places, but every place I've ever lived had that subsidized by the government, and long commutes are a…

They are buying more than the snacks. They are buying you time, since you never need to make office grocery runs to stock your desk. Might not be a huge deal, but elimination of chores really is a perk.

Okay, pay me the money you were going to spend on snacks and the money you were going to pay the person who you pay to fetch the snacks, and I'll go fetch my own snacks or order them off the internet to my desk. It's arguable whether it's actually a perk for me to spend 8 hours in a row at my desk, but even if we accept that claim at face value, it's still not a significant factor in any decisions I make.

Perks are things you give me that I can't get for myself, like health insurance which you use collective bargaining to get a lower price on. Snacks aren't that.

And while it's anecdotal, I've seen people take multiple-thousands-of-dollars pay cuts to work at places with "a better culture" where the only discern-able differences were soda in the fridge, beer on tap, and a ping-pong table or similar: all things that if you put a number value on what it's worth to you, aren't worth it. Culture does matter, but it starts with valuing your workers enough to pay them and not use irrelevant "perks" as an excuse to pay them less.

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#682

Post by notyourday » Tue, Feb 18, 2020, 9:25 PM UTC

triceratops wrote: post #654

notyourday wrote: post #581

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But even if so, high pay doesn't stop athletes from joining a union. Most of athletes aren't high paid. You don't hear about them and the high-paid athletes via players unions do everything possible to prevent newcomers from joining their ranks -- that's why there are deadlines when the teams must bring the number of people on a team down to a certain number. Most of SAG/AFTRA members only dream of a principal role…

> Most of SAG/AFTRA members only dream of a principal role again after using the exceptions while collecting tips slinging drinks in bars or carrying plates in restaurants. And yet, they get healthcare through the union. Minimum rates for when they do find work. Residuals to get them through lean years.

> And yet, they get healthcare through the union.

If they meet eligibility requirements. Most don't.

> Minimum rates for when they do find work.

Those rates are terrible. One cannot support oneself on it. SAG day rate is ~$335. SAG week rate is ~$1166. That's 2020.

> Residuals to get them through lean years.

You are thinking of people who "made it" -- managed to land a long term gig on one of syndicated TV shows. Those are equivalents of $550k/year Staff Engineers.

Source: Dated two. Used exceptions to do SAG/AFTRA show arriving at the must join status.

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#683

Post by big_chungus » Tue, Feb 18, 2020, 9:26 PM UTC

iandanforth wrote: post #132

big_chungus wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why thankfully? Don't workers' rights mean they ought to make their own choices about joining a union or not?

Comments like the above fascinate me. The emotional appeal of "choice" seems to have no end. You can employ it to fight unions, health care, public schools anything you want. Similarly if you can successfully attach "right" (as in "a right") to your rhetoric you can draw out pride, anger, indignation, all sorts of powerful emotions. I recently learned that Frank Luntz ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Luntz ) is…

I'm not making an emotional appeal, I'm making a logical one. Choice means I get to pick what I want to do and choose what's best for me.

For instance, many unions give money to the Republican party, the Democratic party, or both. I'm not interested in funding either. Janus only covered public-sector unions, so I'd still be stuck paying for political speech in which I don't believe.

As a second example, unions typically set the wage for a particular job with both a floor and a ceiling. This means that most employees get closer to the average wage for said job. That's great if you're a lower or average performer, but not if you typically make more. I do, and don't want my earning potential capped by the limits of my co-workers.

Third and following up on my prior point, unions often make it harder to advance. I've been quickly promoted in most places I've worked, but that probably wouldn't happen in a union job. They're all about seniority, and I don't believe some boomer who has worked the same job for twenty years should be promoted ahead of a less-senior person with greater merit.

Fourth, I don't want to be bound by the decisions of others. Unions often have the power to punish members who cross the picket line. If I'm happy with my job and others aren't, I shouldn't be stuck on strike.

There you are, four logical reasons I don't want to join a union. I don't have an issue with them existing, just people being forced to join them. You can't hardly call them "workers' rights" but then say everyone's forced to exercise those "rights". You didn't give any argument of your own, though, nor did you answer my question, you just said "that's emotional reasoning."

P.S. I've read Mr. Luntz' book, "Words that Work". I don't agree with him, but he's good at what he does, and it's worth reading. How you present things is just as important as what you present.

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#684

Post by edmundsauto » Tue, Feb 18, 2020, 9:26 PM UTC

kerkeslager wrote: post #646

ChuckMcM wrote: post #584

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tech workers could have effectively used the leverage associated with unionization since at least 1984 during the semiconductor recession. Considering that the revenue per employee number is at an all time high, and the amount of money the company spends on the employee's working environment[1] is at record lows pretty much explains why this is going to be effective now when it wasn't before. There is also the issue…

Also, frankly, fsk free snacks. Pay me the money you were going to spend on snacks, and I'll choose whether to spend it on snacks or not. And since the money spent on free snacks was probably about $20/week, it won't be a significant consideration in any of my decisions. Bus service might be more significant in some places, but every place I've ever lived had that subsidized by the government, and long commutes are a…

Tax free when a company buys them. I prefer the free snacks even at an even money exchange, but realistically, you'd see about $12/week on a $20/week rerouting.

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#685

Post by SpicyLemonZest » Tue, Feb 18, 2020, 9:27 PM UTC

wilg wrote: post #493

ilikehurdles wrote: post #387

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not really that big of a problem. In an ideal situation, sure, the union could represent union members and the non-union member would be banned from receiving any benefits bargained for by the union. Unfortunately, if the union has to represent everyone then everyone should pay, which isn't much different than if the <1% in leadership positions at a company makes a dumb decision costing the company money and peo…

Do unions have to represent everyone? Seems like its collective bargaining either way?

They aren't required to, but they have the legal right to insist on it and most unions do. The concern is that, if you choose not to represent everyone, the non-union employees can negotiate better deals than you and they'll still benefit from many kinds of working condition improvements you might want.

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#686

Post by pro-duct » Tue, Feb 18, 2020, 9:27 PM UTC

sjg007 wrote: post #669

Hospital doctors are unionized. Professors are unionized. Plumbers are unionized Dirt movers are unionized Police are unionized Figherfighters are unionized Public employees are unionized Teachers are unionized Actors are unionized the NBA is unionized the NFL is unionized the MLB is unionized the NHL is unionized And yet, software engineers should not be ?

It being a common practice isn't relevant to whether it is best for this industry and its workers. I'm not saying I disagree, but your reasoning just doesn't support your argument

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#687

Post by triceratops » Tue, Feb 18, 2020, 9:28 PM UTC

notyourday wrote: post #682

triceratops wrote: post #654

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Most of SAG/AFTRA members only dream of a principal role again after using the exceptions while collecting tips slinging drinks in bars or carrying plates in restaurants. And yet, they get healthcare through the union. Minimum rates for when they do find work. Residuals to get them through lean years.

> And yet, they get healthcare through the union. If they meet eligibility requirements. Most don't. > Minimum rates for when they do find work. Those rates are terrible. One cannot support oneself on it. SAG day rate is ~$335. SAG week rate is ~$1166. That's 2020. > Residuals to get them through lean years. You are thinking of people who "made it" -- managed to land a long term gig on one of syndicated TV shows. Tho…

> If they meet eligibility requirements. Most don't.

You have to earn $15k/year to qualify for the lowest tier health plan. At the minimum rate you quoted, that's about 12 weeks of work. That doesn't seem unreasonable - hard to call yourself a professional actor yet if you can't book 12 weeks of work. Dues are only $220/year, so it's not like you're giving a ton of money to the union while you wait for a break.

> Sag week rate is ~$1166. That's 2020

That's still better money than waiting tables. About 2x California minimum wage.

> You are thinking of people who "made it" -- managed to land a long term gig on one of syndicated TV shows

Maybe I'm understanding this wrong, but it seems like anyone who is a "principal performer" is eligible for residuals. Even guest stars that speak one or 2 lines in a single episode of a long-running show will get something. I don't know the sums involved - maybe it's grocery money, for someone with that small of a part. But do you think a one-line performer would have gotten that negotiating by themselves? They'd be told to take a hike.

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#688

Post by vkou » Tue, Feb 18, 2020, 9:28 PM UTC

yibg wrote: post #469

commandlinefan wrote: post #450

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actors are unionized (or “guildized”, which is basically the same thing), but their pay varies wildly and seems to be more or less relative to their objective value.

That’s a good example. I don’t know much about it, what benefits does the union in this case provide that isn’t achievable without one?

Here's a brief list:

1. Non-competes. If you're an actor, the studio that you did your first film with doesn't own you for the rest of your life.

2. Getting paid for your time if you're called out for a shoot, and the shoot doesn't happen, because the director's dog ate the script, or some other non-sense that you have no control over.

3. Getting paid for your time if you're called out for a shoot, and told to hang around for 8 hours, so that you can do your 5-minute scene.

4. Getting paid if you're a theatrical understudy, have learned your part, and are sitting on-call, ready to step in if the main actor is sick/vacationing/etc.

5. Getting paid more for understudying more roles. Someone who understudies two principal roles has to be paid more than someone who understudies one other chorus role.

Prior to unionization, violations of these were incredibly prevalent across the industry. Studios who took advantage of actors were rewarded by the market, and anyone who tried to push back on these practices was black-balled from the industry.

Despite having to pay actors for their work, and not treating actors like chattel, the entertainment industry has not yet fallen apart.

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#689

Post by edmundsauto » Tue, Feb 18, 2020, 9:30 PM UTC

mdonahoe wrote: post #411

elicash wrote: post #379

1. Why do tech workers need a union? If you want to improve your workplace, you have additional leverage to fight for changes if you're in a union. There's often very little you can do alone. This might be things like pay, or it might be something else entirely. 2. But aren't tech workers elite coddled rich kids who are lucky to make what they receive? I mean, no. But even if so, high pay doesn't stop athletes from j…

"Athletes unionize" is one of the better arguments I've heard for why devs should. I'm curious to learn more about the origins of the players' union.

Marvin Miller is the man who created these. There are some good accounts of his life.

When he started, MLB players hated hearing him out because they thought he was a communist. Talk about a situation where people cut off their nose to spite their faces!

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#690

Post by bobloblaw45 » Tue, Feb 18, 2020, 9:31 PM UTC

zip1234 wrote: post #190

mason55 wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Unions, in my experience, exist to help keep mediocre, unmotivated employees employed. One has no incentive to excel, as promotions are based on years "served", much like prison. There is nothing inherent in unions that make them operate like that.

I had a uncle that was a bricklayer and moved somewhere that bricklayers were in demand so that he could get paid more. He was not a union member. When the union found out he was doing the same work for slightly less, they sent some people over to threaten his life if he didn't join union or leave. He left.

I had a relative that many suspected was murdered way back in the day when my city was having one of its bridges built. Basically there was a strike going on and he was a scab.