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Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

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Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#471

Post by chrisco255 »

WarChortle wrote: post #413
chrisco255 wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First of all "asking for stuff" implies a negotiation between two parties. A negotiation implies that either party can walk away from a deal. You're implying management shouldn't be able to say no. Management is not necessarily out to get employees and excessive compensation or regulation around hiring and firing leads to either insolvency or stagnation. It's a balancing act. A union can be just as exploitative as a…

A negotiation is also done in good faith with both parties willing to listen and discuss options. An individual almost never has the advantage when negotiating with a company. For 99% of employees out their quitting isn't the threat you make it seem to be. As easy you make it sound to get a new job, its that easy for them to replace you. Then that new employee gets to deal with the same shit you left over. It never g…

Yes they do, when you are in a high demand industry with low supply of skilled workers, you are in the driver's seat of a negotiation. You have options. You're the one being bid on by multiple employers. You absolutely have the leverage there. This is similar to the real estate market, by the way. There are so-called "buyers markets" and "seller markets" where one trend or another is dominant at any given time depending on if there are more buyers than sellers or more sellers than buyers.

It's not easy to replace tech employees at all. Even if there was an abundant supply of expert software engineers (there's not), it takes many months to ramp up on a new code base to optimal productivity and to learn the organization and domain requirements of a software product. That will never change.

An average tech company will spend tens of thousands of dollars to fill a position, not even counting initial salary and bonuses.

Leaving for somewhere better often does solve quite a bit. On my last job move my pay increased by 50%. If I had stayed at my previous company I'd be skating by with 4% raises.

On the whole the aggregate effect of employees moving around in a dynamic market creates the cush benefits and pay we see in this industry.

The reason they wouldn't give you specifically better insurance is because they have to negotiate a plan for everyone in the company. What is that costing them on paper? I don't know how many employees your company has or what their margins are or any details really, but it can be as much as $700-$1000 a month per employee for health insurance. If you've got 100 employees that's $100K a year.

No boss should "laugh you out of the office" for requesting that. But really, its an HR and Corporate leadership issue so you should take your grievances to those with the power to make the change and not your boss (unless you work directly for the CEO).

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#472

Post by elicash »

baron816 wrote: post #451
mdonahoe wrote: post #411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Athletes unionize" is one of the better arguments I've heard for why devs should. I'm curious to learn more about the origins of the players' union.

I disagree. Professional sports leagues are both monopolies and monopsonies (meaning they’re the only ones hiring those specialized athletes). So the market dynamics are very different from that of tech. If you’re a NFL linebacker, you don’t really have an option to switch leagues if you’re unhappy with how it’s run. If you’re a software engineer, you can switch companies very easily.

I brought up professional sports unions in the context of having a highly competitive group of workers who make large salaries, and that a union can still be useful in that environment as far as negotiations.

That professional sports are monopolies and monopsonies isn't particularly relevant to this point.

The fact that tech workers can find a job elsewhere is even more motiviation to unionize because you have even more bargaining power and there are smaller risks.

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#473

Post by zpallin »

wpietri wrote: post #400
zpallin wrote: post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Generally speaking for well run, ethical companies, whose management actively try to do the right thing, unions add unnecessary redundancy and bureaucracy. The only type of "well run, ethical companies" where unions are redundant are worker-owned cooperatives . Otherwise, an employer, regardless of how ethical they are, can never replicate the most critical aspect of unions: collective bargaining rights . Sure, an…

That's becoming my take as well. I think the tech industry was, at least for a while, an exception here. Developers were so hard to get and retain that the power of individual workers did a lot to keep things sane. But I think that power is, for a variety of reasons, waning. If we want to keep our unusually good working conditions, and especially if we want to make sure our colleagues enjoy them as well, then I think…

You should contact Human Agenda and join their Mondragon Trip (http://www.humanagenda.net/tour-the-mondragon-cooperatives/). Mondragon, as you probably know, is the home of the world's largest worker-coop federation's HQ and its namesake. Through Human Agenda you can get a tour of their HQ and potentially a chance to meet worker owners and see their facilities (a number of which are in the town.) You can also check out their university and quality of life. I've been there myself and it's highly recommended if you want to go this direction.

Also, the Arizmendi cooperative is named after the founder of Mondragon, Jose Maria Arizmendiarrieta.

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#474

Post by totaldude87 »

namdnay wrote: post #187
dangus wrote: post #2

> That dynamic doesn’t reflect who we are as a company, how we interact, how we make decisions, or where we need to go. We believe that in many ways it would set us back, and that the us vs. them binary already has. What a shameful statement. Kickstarter has a so-so 3.6 on Glassdoor, and a sub-50% CEO approval rating. A lot of reviews talk about a secretive, insulated management group. You don’t see companies with 4.…

Or even better: your employees are unionizing? Great! It means you have an organized structure to discuss employee satisfaction with!

or it could be even worse, the “us versus them” has gone to the next level.. its all up-to the mentality of management , if everyone flexes their muscle nothing good can come out of it.

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#475

Post by evunveot »

lexs wrote: post #349
pathseeker wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Somewhat obviously, I’ve seen some be successful with unions and others be successful without From the company perspective maybe, but I've not seen a union in the US that successfully rewards high performing employees over mediocre lifers. Overachievers end up leaving and you're left with no innovation. Do you have any examples of unions that have solved this problem?

NBA players association, actors guild, writers guild etc are famous examples of "rewarding high performing employees"

I'd argue those are more like cartels than unions.

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#476

Post by ksr_throwaway »

For those who are curious this union drive was really started by extreme incompetence from upper management. The former CEO hired ineffective status-seekers (including the current CEO) into many positions of power which created a super toxic environment. Accountability for internal problems has been extremely low. The "Always Punch Nazis" controversy was just the straw that broke the camel's back.

People in the bay area may not understand that most people working at Kickstarter truly believe in the company's mission. The money is not great and we've been willing to accept that to feel like we're making a positive change in the world. Unfortunately upper management has used this (as well as Kickstarter's reputation) as a bargaining chip to treat employees poorly.

Source: I work at Kickstarter

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#477

Post by kerkeslager »

exabrial wrote: post #8

They'd be wise to learn from history: There are many people willing do your job for cheaper, most of them in other countries working for smaller wages.

You would be wise to learn from history: many software companies have tried this and many of those companies no longer exist as a result.

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#478

Post by domikazi »

preinheimer wrote: post #394
apexalpha wrote: post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems like a cartoonishly simple respresentation of what a union can do. Why would one have no incentive to excel? Our union creates entire promotion matrixes for excelling employees. Comparing it to a prison... Are you a worker or a shill for corporate?

I worked (years ago) for the UFCW as a worker at a grocery store. All of the union that was exposed to me as a part timer was: - hours go out by seniority - raises happen at set intervals regardless of quality of work - that guy selling pot out of the backroom will be protected until they catch him stealing a rotisserie chicken - 0.x% of my paycheck goes to the union. - I got paid less, and received raises less often…

Yep. I had this same experience when I was working at a grocery store.

I didn't want to join a union, because the idea of my 16 year old ass having to pay $20 dollars a paycheck to somebody for a job I was gonna have for 4 months during the summer sounded asinine.

Well, the "union-boss" at my store informed me that if I didn't join then I wouldn't be put on the schedule or get any hours.

So I joined just to get hours, and lost a few hundred bucks that summer so the old women who had been cashiers for 30 years could get their raises.

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#479

Post by ticmasta »

tikhonj wrote: post #343
pathseeker wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Somewhat obviously, I’ve seen some be successful with unions and others be successful without From the company perspective maybe, but I've not seen a union in the US that successfully rewards high performing employees over mediocre lifers. Overachievers end up leaving and you're left with no innovation. Do you have any examples of unions that have solved this problem?

Aren't a lot of professional sports leagues unionized? I know that NBA players have a union, and top players definitely get rewarded well.

>> I know that NBA players have a union, and top players definitely get rewarded well.

relative to what? the top players have always gotten big paydays, and the economics suggest without a union they would get paid even more. They are effectively subsidizing mid and lower tier players.

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#480

Post by chrisco255 »

mdszy wrote: post #341
chrisco255 wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First of all "asking for stuff" implies a negotiation between two parties. A negotiation implies that either party can walk away from a deal. You're implying management shouldn't be able to say no. Management is not necessarily out to get employees and excessive compensation or regulation around hiring and firing leads to either insolvency or stagnation. It's a balancing act. A union can be just as exploitative as a…

And the company can walk away too, they just don't get to take the workers with them. A corporation is not entitled to anyone's labor.

Neither is a union entitled to my labor. I would purposely avoid unions to maintain my agency as an individual and to work at more agile and flexible institutions.
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