Kickstarter employees vote to unionize • Hacker News Board

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#161

Post by cameronbrown » Tue, Feb 18, 2020, 5:31 PM UTC

mempko wrote: post #128

umvi wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Democracy is cool, until we look at companies. Then it's dictatorships as the norm. Democracy is a horribly inefficient system of government. Its only redeeming quality is that it seems effective at (so far) deterring tyranny and abuse of power. However, like I said, it's horribly inefficient. Changes that are easy to make under a dictatorship can be extremely hard to make under a democracy. Not exactly a quality y…

Democracy is also a system that produces BETTER decisions. Sure tyranny can make decisions "efficiently" but that's not that great when those decisions are terrible. Democracy: Fewer macro, more micro, better decisions Command-Control: More macro, fewer micro, terrible decisions. EDIT: Another way to think of democracy is "distributed decision making" vs command-control which is "centralized decision making". When I…

It also makes the orgs much slower moving, much less able to adapt quickly. Market conditions change while these companies are still debating decisions from months ago.

TL;DR: It works for some (and we should have more of them imo!) but not all or even most.

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#162

Post by Jweb_Guru » Tue, Feb 18, 2020, 5:31 PM UTC

_sbrk wrote: post #68

I worked in a union shop once, as a summer intern. Every day, we were told to be in the break room at 7:59am to begin promptly at the 8am bell. By 4:30 or 4:45pm, everyone was back in there, waiting for the clock to hit 5pm. One day, I needed to connect two PCs together, which was approved by boss as they would be isolated from the network. So, being the diligent type, I went off and found some network cards and a ca…

I'm sure it's just a coincidence that this reads like poorly disguised anti-union propaganda, but it does. In my experience with startups--which is a bit more extensive than yours is with union workplaces--"ambition and taking on responsibility" are rewarded only when it's convenient, and those rewards are often removed or withheld for arbitrary or personal reasons that have nothing to do with your quality of work. The fact that your bosses can (and do) fire startup employees at a moment's notice without any real consequences to themselves would probably concern you more than whether the employees... worked regular eight hour days (wait, why is this being spun as a negative?), were you in an industry where jobs were tighter.

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#163

Post by kstrauser » Tue, Feb 18, 2020, 5:31 PM UTC

nradov wrote: post #92

_sbrk wrote: post #68

I worked in a union shop once, as a summer intern. Every day, we were told to be in the break room at 7:59am to begin promptly at the 8am bell. By 4:30 or 4:45pm, everyone was back in there, waiting for the clock to hit 5pm. One day, I needed to connect two PCs together, which was approved by boss as they would be isolated from the network. So, being the diligent type, I went off and found some network cards and a ca…

A friend of mine worked as a developer at defense contractor with mostly union employees. One time they moved him to a different cubicle. Due to union work rules he literally had to wait two days for a union electrician to come by and plug his desktop computer into the wall socket. Just ridiculous.

I've personally seen this exact same thing. I was raised pro-union. I'm still very pro-union. Stuff like this is just batty, though.

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#164

Post by pastor_elm » Tue, Feb 18, 2020, 5:32 PM UTC

echelon wrote: post #3

I really don't understand this. A career in software is one of the most pampered and lucrative ones I can think of. Due to the shortage of software engineers, we can go anywhere and get a job instantly. The only downside I can think of is ageism, but then again, I have colleagues in their 50s and 60s where I work. But I suppose this isn't universal. (I'm in Atlanta and we have a lot of older workers. Age doesn't seem…

Most of the people that work there probably aren't software engineers.

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#165

Post by wellthisisgreat » Tue, Feb 18, 2020, 5:32 PM UTC

Is there a list of demands and laws anywhere they want to impose?

There is only this: https://kickstarterunited.org/

Not a word about the standards of performance or expectations from employees who would want to be part of union. A short list of some fairly handwavy statements and a one-page website "join-join-join".

Also what kind of positions do people who pushed this occupied? How many engineers have signed this?

Are they actually technical workers or ex political studies majors, who lucked out to get a job at Kickstarter and not Starbucks.

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#166

Post by mempko » Tue, Feb 18, 2020, 5:33 PM UTC

wellthisisgreat wrote: post #117

Wow this really sad, provided Kickstarter is one of the nicest places to work at and their public benefit corporation was not empty words. These people ruined a really nice NYC company for everyone around. Anyone running their company who thought of making the workplace a bit different will expect the kind of crowd from this photo to show up and implode it. One thing is if the conditions were bad, there was insane ov…

Why do you hate people making Kickstarter what it is? The people actually doing the work want a union, how is that ruining the company?

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#167

Post by overthemoon » Tue, Feb 18, 2020, 5:33 PM UTC

_sbrk wrote: post #68

I worked in a union shop once, as a summer intern. Every day, we were told to be in the break room at 7:59am to begin promptly at the 8am bell. By 4:30 or 4:45pm, everyone was back in there, waiting for the clock to hit 5pm. One day, I needed to connect two PCs together, which was approved by boss as they would be isolated from the network. So, being the diligent type, I went off and found some network cards and a ca…

Sounds like a crummy union.

Anyway, what's wrong with keeping mediocre, unmotivated employees employed? What's so great about ambition? This is tongue in cheek, but I feel like plenty of people, with good justification, would think of their jobs in exactly the terms you describe, with words like "serve" as in a prison sentence.

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#168

Post by jrochkind1 » Tue, Feb 18, 2020, 5:33 PM UTC

umvi wrote: post #105

crankylinuxuser wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just formed a company back in December. Super easy to set up an LLC, C or S Corp. But I wanted it to be a worker co-op like Mondragon. And there's no real guidance or help. Democracy is cool, until we look at companies. Then it's dictatorships as the norm. And trying to do it right from the ground up is high impossible. As a obligatory comment: are there any other in the HN-sphere that focuses on worker cooperative…

> Democracy is cool, until we look at companies. Then it's dictatorships as the norm. Democracy is a horribly inefficient system of government. Its only redeeming quality is that it seems effective at (so far) deterring tyranny and abuse of power. However, like I said, it's horribly inefficient. Changes that are easy to make under a dictatorship can be extremely hard to make under a democracy. Not exactly a quality y…

Some have experienced egregious tyranny and abuse of power in the workplace, and might think it is worth deterring there too.

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#169

Post by dd36 » Tue, Feb 18, 2020, 5:33 PM UTC

azinman2 wrote: post #125

jdkee wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Millions of people across the U.S. benefit from collective bargaining, such as increased wages, health benefits and retirement security, yet one anecdotal off-topic post gets upvoted.

Probably because it resonates as a real problem despite the upsides.

An easily solved problem.

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#170

Post by geofft » Tue, Feb 18, 2020, 5:33 PM UTC

umvi wrote: post #105

crankylinuxuser wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just formed a company back in December. Super easy to set up an LLC, C or S Corp. But I wanted it to be a worker co-op like Mondragon. And there's no real guidance or help. Democracy is cool, until we look at companies. Then it's dictatorships as the norm. And trying to do it right from the ground up is high impossible. As a obligatory comment: are there any other in the HN-sphere that focuses on worker cooperative…

> Democracy is cool, until we look at companies. Then it's dictatorships as the norm. Democracy is a horribly inefficient system of government. Its only redeeming quality is that it seems effective at (so far) deterring tyranny and abuse of power. However, like I said, it's horribly inefficient. Changes that are easy to make under a dictatorship can be extremely hard to make under a democracy. Not exactly a quality y…

Linus and Guido a) do not control anyone's paycheck b) cannot control who decides they're interested in working on Linux and Python.

The benevolent dictatorship model works great when people can vote with their feet (or their keyboards, as the case may be) whether they support the dictator in the first place. The contributors to Linux and Python have more influence over the projects than the dictators do - they continually decide whether to endorse the dictator's vision. A dictatorship of a company is much more like an actual dictatorship of a country, where you control people's lives and decide who gets to join and leave. It's more efficient, yes - but it is both less just and less incentivized to point that ruthless efficiency in the right direction.

By all means, run technical projects at work like Linux and Python are run - but give people the freedom to vote no confidence in these projects without endangering their housing and their health insurance.