Jeff Bezos Commits $10B to Address Climate Change • Hacker News Board

Re: Jeff Bezos Commits $10B to Address Climate Change

#191

Post by retsibsi » Mon, Feb 17, 2020, 11:10 PM UTC

rpiguy wrote: post #56

everdrive wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't it possible that Bezos is not a hero due to moral complications, but also that this effort of his will have a positive impact?

Yes, absolutely. No argument there.

Better to encourage it then, surely. If rich people are doing good things in order to win praise, what's the point of denying it to them? If enough of us react that way, we won't diminish the power of the rich people, we'll just get to watch them spend their money more selfishly.

This doesn't mean staying silent about the bad things they do. But if we only respond to the good things by bringing up the bad things, we end up perversely being more critical of the ones who do some good, and diverting our scrutiny away from those who don't even bother.

(I haven't looked into this pledge, so I'm just speaking on the hypothetical case where it is likely to do good, as you've acknowledged is at least possible.)

edit: I just noticed that you say in another comment you 'do not believe in climate change'. In which case I guess this line of reasoning won't have any force for you. But maybe you can understand why people who do see climate change as a serious problem are going to take a pragmatic view, and treat the investment of $10b as vastly more important than the lifestyle sacrifices of a single person.

Re: Jeff Bezos Commits $10B to Address Climate Change

#192

Post by retsibsi » Mon, Feb 17, 2020, 11:32 PM UTC

rpiguy wrote: post #75

questionfor wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If this commenter opened with “I do not believe in climate change” many people here would have saved time and not responded to this quasi-trolling

Because all dissenting opinions are trolls? I genuinely dislike being preached to about climate change by mega-consumers like celebrities.

Discussing the proper response to a problem with someone who denies its existence is rarely productive, so people might have saved some time if they had known your position from the beginning.

Re: Jeff Bezos Commits $10B to Address Climate Change

#193

Post by viklove » Mon, Feb 17, 2020, 11:49 PM UTC

tunesmith wrote: post #70

gpu_explorer wrote: post #28

These comments do surprise me yes. The amount of conflict in the remarks is because both parties are right. It's very wonderful for Jeff Bezos to donate $10B dollars. But also it's right about private jets, which generate much carbon pollution. It's fair to say that everyone has to do their part against climate problems. I for one make personal sacrifices yes. Less meat, less consuming, trying for local purchases as…

I recently did some calculations on car vs plane travel. For commuter flights, it surprised me to find out that for gasoline cars, car travel isn't better than a flight until you get to a carpool of four passengers. For electric cars, a solo driver is about the same as air travel (in an average airport flight) - a second passenger makes it better than air travel. (This was for a flight halfway across the country.) So…

Care to reproduce your calculations here? I'm certain you're off by a factor of 10 (at least). Flying is probably the worst thing you will do in your entire life as far as the environment is concerned.

Re: Jeff Bezos Commits $10B to Address Climate Change

#194

Post by inerte » Mon, Feb 17, 2020, 11:55 PM UTC

humbledrone wrote: post #74

inerte wrote: post #20

After reading Winners Take All my level of cynicism is through the roof with headlines like this. $10b of his own personal fortune? That won't results in tax breaks / deduction because can be considered a donation? Or does that include money Amazon-the-company is spending on "climate change" efforts, such as buying electric delivery trucks instead of gas ones? Investments in "green datacenters"? Is any of this new in…

I frequently see the "they're just doing this for the tax breaks" sentiment for these kinds of donations (especially when the donor is a corporation or hyper-wealthy individual) but I don't understand the reasoning. From what I understand of tax deductions, a donation of $X basically means that the donor can skip paying taxes on $X of income. This results in a savings of tax% * $X, which is always The tax deduction a…

I did _not_ say he's doing this just for tax reasons. I asked if the $10b are really $10b that won't result in any tax breaks? Is Bezos letting go of $10b, or will he get a deduction, perhaps using a similar formula to the one you posted?

We're being duped on headlines such as "Bezos commits to $10b" when his net worth won't be affected by that much.

The cynicism comes from the PR, sure, but also from a preservation perspective. I doubt any of the grants Bezos is giving will result in research that shows in any way what Amazon is doing is bad for the environment. It won't propose an increase in taxes on gas based engines like lawn mowers, shipping plastic from overseas, selling meat based products, or if Amazon moved Prime to 5 days shipping instead of 1, it could bundle deliveries and reduce trucks on the street and the gas it uses.

And for sure, it won't be a critical view of the American consumerism (which is fueled and promoted and enhanced by retailers like Amazon) and how if the world had even 1/10th of the standard of living of the US the planet would be in flames right now.

It will probably be something like investment in renewable energy, electric trucks, drone delivery. All new stuff, investment opportunities, things that coincidentally help Amazon while helping the world. Don't get me wrong, it's all stuff we need, but the cynicism comes from Bezos being committed to fighting climate change as long as it doesn't take his money, and actually, it should probably make him money in the process.

Re: Jeff Bezos Commits $10B to Address Climate Change

#195

Post by BurningFrog » Mon, Feb 17, 2020, 11:56 PM UTC

inerte wrote: post #182

BurningFrog wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US federal government is absolutely a single central power. That its leadership is selected democratically is good, but doesn't change that. I don't expect billionaires to be perfect, but so far none of them has invaded countries for mistaken reasons, killing hundreds of thousands of people, or locked up millions in a War on Drugs.

I think we can quibble on what central really means, but the fact that they're democratically elected is the important part here. We make the government, and can direct its actions to what should benefit us the most. None gets a saying on what the Koch family or Bezos do with their money other than themselves. > I don't expect billionaires to be perfect, but so far none of them has invaded countries for mistaken reas…

I just think it's an important realization that while a democratically elected central government is much better than, say, one run by absolute hereditary monarchy, it is still one central government, and it will end up being run by a few people who make the their way to the top.

> I know a lot of people that would pin the gratuitous invasion of other countries on the industrial-military complex and control of oil and all the money that depends on it.

I don't know how you can square that view with the one where the voting public controls the government. Is the voters or the industrial-military complex in charge? Can't be both.

The human ability to hold completely opposite views at the same time truly is something!

> Are there any billionaires trying to solve this problem?

Well, the Koch brothers certainly do/did. A few quickly Google links:

https://www.axios.com/koch-network-opposes-sessions-restart-... https://www.denverpost.com/2017/06/25/koch-network-trump-adm... https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/03/do-the-...

Re: Jeff Bezos Commits $10B to Address Climate Change

#196

Post by moneytide1 » Mon, Feb 17, 2020, 11:58 PM UTC

inerte wrote: post #20

After reading Winners Take All my level of cynicism is through the roof with headlines like this. $10b of his own personal fortune? That won't results in tax breaks / deduction because can be considered a donation? Or does that include money Amazon-the-company is spending on "climate change" efforts, such as buying electric delivery trucks instead of gas ones? Investments in "green datacenters"? Is any of this new in…

> Is Bezos, worth $130b today be worth $120b tomorrow because of this?

I would think so with this sort of investment. It depends on what you mean by tomorrow. I like the 18 year cycle because that is how long it takes to produce a crop of tax paying voters. Years 0-5 atmosphere and nutrition quality carry more weight during that physical development term.

If he wants a "trillion human Solar system with a thousand Mozart and Einstein minds", then citizen factory Earth is a good first step?

Re: Jeff Bezos Commits $10B to Address Climate Change

#197

Post by hndamien » Tue, Feb 18, 2020, 12:07 AM UTC

entangledqubit wrote: post #137

klipt wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah the donation deduction is just a form of leverage. You effectively pay X but the charity gets 2X (actual multiplier depends on your marginal tax rate). One way of looking at it is that the government is "matching" part of your donation with tax money. But you never make money that way.

You can't make money this way but you can still argue that money that would have gone to taxes has now been redirected by an individual to a cause they solely decided is worthwhile.

The objective is to make wealth, not money.

Re: Jeff Bezos Commits $10B to Address Climate Change

#198

Post by loeg » Tue, Feb 18, 2020, 12:44 AM UTC

wmf wrote: post #184

loeg wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're not wrong, but I don't think this is responsive to my comment. Maybe replying to the wrong one on accident? (Also: any organization can claim religious status and becomes essentially exempt from IRS review of charitable status. See: Scientology. Not that I expect Bezos' fund to do that.)

You make it sound like "decides which donations are tax deductible" was done 100 years ago and never changed which isn't the case. Now if you'll excuse me I have to file some paperwork for the Church of the V8...

I didn't say that and I'm sorry it was unclear. I said:

> the government added the charitable deduction during the 1917 WWI revenue act

The distinction I was trying to draw was that prior to 1917, charitable giving could not be deducted at all, and what changed was that the legislature of the time decided to make it so. It's 100 years ago, but really not that long compared to the history of this country.

If you want to say the IRS represents the will of society, I think I would mildly disagree. They're not elected. That said, they are largely governed by rules set forth by the legislature, who are at least elected, if not always representative.

Re: Jeff Bezos Commits $10B to Address Climate Change

#199

Post by humbledrone » Tue, Feb 18, 2020, 12:49 AM UTC

inerte wrote: post #194

humbledrone wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I frequently see the "they're just doing this for the tax breaks" sentiment for these kinds of donations (especially when the donor is a corporation or hyper-wealthy individual) but I don't understand the reasoning. From what I understand of tax deductions, a donation of $X basically means that the donor can skip paying taxes on $X of income. This results in a savings of tax% * $X, which is always The tax deduction a…

I did _not_ say he's doing this just for tax reasons. I asked if the $10b are really $10b that won't result in any tax breaks? Is Bezos letting go of $10b, or will he get a deduction, perhaps using a similar formula to the one you posted? We're being duped on headlines such as "Bezos commits to $10b" when his net worth won't be affected by that much. The cynicism comes from the PR, sure, but also from a preservation…

> the cynicism comes from Bezos being committed to fighting climate change as long as it doesn't take his money, and actually, it should probably make him money in the process.

If this is the way it works out, isn't that actually pretty great? I mean, I personally find Amazon to be quite useful, so it if could continue being an economically viable business while also fighting climate change, I'd be very happy.

Re: Jeff Bezos Commits $10B to Address Climate Change

#200

Post by harry8 » Tue, Feb 18, 2020, 12:53 AM UTC

Worlds richest man continues to pay zero tax while making fatuous annoucnements.

That should be the preface on every single Bezos article. Every time his name is mentioned, it should explained as follows "Jeff Bezos, who is the world's richest man and neither he nor is company have ever paid any tax at all."

Then people can effectively make their own mind up about whatever his PR team is pushing this week. It's impossible to be cynical enough, in my opinion. YMMV.

Disagree? Write down what you think this announcement means. Review it in a year and see if you were misled.