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Is an Aboriginal tale of an ancient volcano the oldest story ever told?

sciencemag.org

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Re: Is an Aboriginal tale of an ancient volcano the oldest story ever told?

#31

Post by crispinb »

2019-nCoV wrote: post #28
fit2rule wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its related to the kinship system: https://sydney.edu.au/about-us/vision-and-values/our-aborigi... There is a recent paper which dives into this in more detail and reveals the surprising alignment with modern crypto principles based on a more rigorous analysis, but I can't seem to find it at the moment. It is frustratingly difficult topic to search for... Essentially, clans and tribes would teach their representative…

It's pure aggrandisation to compare such rudimental human behaviour with crypto key exchange.

Do you know anything about Australian civilisation, or is your comment derived purely from industrial era superstitions?

Re: Is an Aboriginal tale of an ancient volcano the oldest story ever told?

#32

Post by basicplus2 »

sigstoat wrote: post #21
fit2rule wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And by way of corollary, if you have a strong and resolute oral tradition that can stand the test of 10's of thousands of years, writing systems seem entirely inefficient.

seems like selection bias. we’ve no idea how much has been lost. or whether or not the oral historians of X thousand years ago would be satisfied with how their tales have made it down the ages.

Their stories were essential for survival in finding food and their way across 1000's of miles of open land to different reaources. If they were wrong they would die.

I met and sat and talked with indiginous people in fitzroy crossing who walked in from Adelaide across the centre of Australian deserts by the use of their stories.

Re: Is an Aboriginal tale of an ancient volcano the oldest story ever told?

#33

Post by crispinb »

fit2rule wrote: post #13
MisterOctober wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My guess based on context is that "FNP" refers to the indigenous people of Australia [maybe 'First Nations People?' -- however that term is more generally used in North America, to my knowledge], but that acronym isn't present in the article. Would you clarify for our benefit please?

It does indeed refer to the indigenous people of Australia, and is a general term used by many indigenous people who were displaced by colonisation in Australia, the USA and Canada. Australian Aboriginal People use this term freely - I believe it is politically leveraged in a contemporary context to indicate alignment with other displaced peoples around the world. Euro-Australians are generally not as content with th…

I haven't once heard 'First Nations People' used on the ground other than by visiting speakers (usually from overseas). Indigenous & Koorie are the most common terms used here (I live in the Northern Rivers - Bundjalung country).

Re: Is an Aboriginal tale of an ancient volcano the oldest story ever told?

#34

Post by aaron695 »

What's the word for this? Where you tell or get a generic story then fit it to specific objects or events?

They use it in Astrology all the time. So do Mind readers.

Jordan Peterson does this a well. I think what he does in general is based in science, but his interpreting old stories is scientific nonsense, but entertaining.

It is funny how people rail up against the colonial past, but then still treat the natives like a different species exactly like the colonials. A mythical tribe who could keep stories alive longer than 3 generations.

Even in societies with writing, stories corrupt after a hundred years. Look at Grimm Fairy tales and the before and after versions we can find written. They also had oral as well as writing but still couldn't hold it together.

Re: Is an Aboriginal tale of an ancient volcano the oldest story ever told?

#35

Post by sigstoat »

basicplus2 wrote: post #32
sigstoat wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

seems like selection bias. we’ve no idea how much has been lost. or whether or not the oral historians of X thousand years ago would be satisfied with how their tales have made it down the ages.

Their stories were essential for survival in finding food and their way across 1000's of miles of open land to different reaources. If they were wrong they would die. I met and sat and talked with indiginous people in fitzroy crossing who walked in from Adelaide across the centre of Australian deserts by the use of their stories.

uh. not sure what claim you're trying to imply here? you've provided what I see as an even more profound example of selection bias.

the folks who needed an oral tradition to stay alive, and were failed by said oral tradition _died_ and weren't here for you to meet.

Re: Is an Aboriginal tale of an ancient volcano the oldest story ever told?

#37

Post by crispinb »

aaron695 wrote: post #34

What's the word for this? Where you tell or get a generic story then fit it to specific objects or events? They use it in Astrology all the time. So do Mind readers. Jordan Peterson does this a well. I think what he does in general is based in science, but his interpreting old stories is scientific nonsense, but entertaining. It is funny how people rail up against the colonial past, but then still treat the natives l…

There's a phenomenon where people who know the least about a topic seem to make the most confident pronouncements. It betokens a sad lack of curiosity.

Do even 10 minutes of reading and you'll find out that there are many cases of scientists & ethnographers in Australia corroborating traditional story details over thousands of years. Another 5 minutes and you'll find, again, cases where indigenous elders have traversed country they've never been in before, and gone straight to the only water sources existing in hundreds of surrounding square kilometers. All based on traditional stories. Probe a little further and you'll find out that much (though not all) is known about the cultural technologies that have been used to keep the stories alive and accurate over multiple generations.

Indigenous Australians aren't a 'different species'. But they do represent a distinct civilisation, which has thrived all the way across a continent for 40-60,000 years. Part of how they have done this is by maintaining stories about the land. This has little in common with industrial era unsubstantiated superstitions about indigenous peoples' 'oral stories'.

Re: Is an Aboriginal tale of an ancient volcano the oldest story ever told?

#38

Post by shermozle »

jbattle wrote: post #9

I ask this question out of more curiosity than skepticism, but how do the scientists in this article distinguish between stories that explain the 'appearance' of the volcano vs. the 'formation' of the volcano? As a point of comparison, there are a lot of stories about how Paul Bunyan created various lakes, mountains, and valleys. These are clearly invented backstories for part of the existing landscape. I can't find…

For context there's a pseudo debate going on in Australia about whether the indigenous people had large-scale agri- and aquaculture. A book, highly recommended, called Dark Emu quotes primary sources from early settlers and white explorers clearly describing an agrarian economy that was rapidly wiped out by invading settlers and their livestock. If true, and it's a convincing theory, the indigenous first Australians had a completely different culture to that we've all been taught. Settled agriculture actively managing the land as opposed to hunter gatherers. And the history goes back 50-60k years.

This idea has touched a nerve with the Murdocracy who opened a new front in their culture wars attacking the idea without really attempting to refute it from historical sources.

So I think reading this piece in that context is helpful.

Re: Is an Aboriginal tale of an ancient volcano the oldest story ever told?

#39

Post by simonblack »

jbattle wrote: post #9

I ask this question out of more curiosity than skepticism, but how do the scientists in this article distinguish between stories that explain the 'appearance' of the volcano vs. the 'formation' of the volcano? As a point of comparison, there are a lot of stories about how Paul Bunyan created various lakes, mountains, and valleys. These are clearly invented backstories for part of the existing landscape. I can't find…

Or is it more that the local population has been in place for 40k years so these stories could be that old?

That is very likely. The Aboriginal Culture has strong affiliation the land and to a tribes' Sacred Sites. They never move far from those Sacred Sites. Even if they move away seasonally, (say from a mountain area to a seaside area while following food) they will return to 'their' mountain area the next season, again following food.

The Aboriginal hunter-gatherer lifestyle places great importance on conservation, both on flora and fauna. Breeding/growing seasons are usually off-limits so that the food supply can be allowed to be restored properly.

Some tribes had a workable fish-farming system for hundreds (thousands?) of years. The remains of those ponds are still existent today (Byaduk and Condah area). https://theconversation.com/the-detective-work-behind-the-bu...

Re: Is an Aboriginal tale of an ancient volcano the oldest story ever told?

#40

Post by ccsnags »

c3534l wrote: post #25

So there's a story about a volcano and there happens to be an old volcanic formation nearby, therefor the story depicts an actual event an implausibly long time ago. I find this as believable as Noah's Ark because there was a big flood once. Show us more than just a single coincidence on an entire continent of peoples.

The article itself provides more than one coincidence, but they are making some assumptions that seem to be stretching what the evidence is able to provide.

I dug a little deeper and found a host of interesting things but like the article, there seems to be a bit of embellishment in what they can know with the evidence provided.

The important take away is that we shouldn’t assume less technologically advanced civilizations don’t have complex systems of communication. I think much of the stories of our past are important, even when they seem to be fantastic.

If Aboriginal storytelling has the ability to stay consistent over time, the structure of such a thing would be valuable to the modern world.

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