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Is an Aboriginal tale of an ancient volcano the oldest story ever told?

sciencemag.org

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Re: Is an Aboriginal tale of an ancient volcano the oldest story ever told?

#11

Post by DennisP »

fit2rule wrote: post #6

Anyone paying attention to the FNP saga, have known for a long time that there is more to the tale of their civilisation than we have been willing to admit. The FNP had the worlds largest trading network for tens of thousands of years. They had a form of crypto key exchange which guaranteed peace between the tribes. They farmed and tamed the landmass of the Australian continent with fire, turning it into a self-reple…

> They had a form of crypto key exchange which guaranteed peace between the tribes.

Could you expand on this?

Re: Is an Aboriginal tale of an ancient volcano the oldest story ever told?

#12

Post by rolleiflex »

jbattle wrote: post #9

I ask this question out of more curiosity than skepticism, but how do the scientists in this article distinguish between stories that explain the 'appearance' of the volcano vs. the 'formation' of the volcano? As a point of comparison, there are a lot of stories about how Paul Bunyan created various lakes, mountains, and valleys. These are clearly invented backstories for part of the existing landscape. I can't find…

The article mentions that human artefacts have been found in the sediment under the solidified lava from the eruption of the said volcanos.

It also appears to claim that Australia seems to be a general exception to the rule that human populations move around - in this case they appears to have stayed put. As a result, it’s a reasonable deduction that there were humans before the said volcanoes, and (less credibly) that they are generally linked to the aforementioned indigenous population. Ultimately I think what’s interesting is the first part, a piece of human culture survived for so long through whatever means.

Re: Is an Aboriginal tale of an ancient volcano the oldest story ever told?

#13

Post by fit2rule »

MisterOctober wrote: post #10
fit2rule wrote: post #6

Anyone paying attention to the FNP saga, have known for a long time that there is more to the tale of their civilisation than we have been willing to admit. The FNP had the worlds largest trading network for tens of thousands of years. They had a form of crypto key exchange which guaranteed peace between the tribes. They farmed and tamed the landmass of the Australian continent with fire, turning it into a self-reple…

My guess based on context is that "FNP" refers to the indigenous people of Australia [maybe 'First Nations People?' -- however that term is more generally used in North America, to my knowledge], but that acronym isn't present in the article. Would you clarify for our benefit please?

It does indeed refer to the indigenous people of Australia, and is a general term used by many indigenous people who were displaced by colonisation in Australia, the USA and Canada. Australian Aboriginal People use this term freely - I believe it is politically leveraged in a contemporary context to indicate alignment with other displaced peoples around the world. Euro-Australians are generally not as content with the use of this phrase, since it indicates a path to sovereignty and serves as a reminder of Australia's rough past.

However, from the FNP-side, it is considered better than the phrases "Aborigine" or "Indigenous", since these phrases can be used to refer to the condition of various flora and fauna, and thus de-humanizes the subject. The FN people in my family prefer that I refer to them thus as FNP.

There is a better guideline for how this should be addressed, because as you no doubt can understand, its a sensitive issue:

https://www.actcoss.org.au/sites/default/files/public/public...

See also:

https://www.commonground.org.au/learn/aboriginal-or-indigeno...

"Similarly to above ('First Australians'), 'First Nations' recognises Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people as the sovereign people of this land. It goes further than 'First Australians' as it recognises various language groups as separate and unique sovereign nations. It is widely used to describe the First Peoples in Canada and other countries across the globe. Over recent years, the use of this term has grown in popularity. It is a better choice than many outdated and offensive terms described above."

Re: Is an Aboriginal tale of an ancient volcano the oldest story ever told?

#14

Post by ogre_codes »

fit2rule wrote: post #6

Anyone paying attention to the FNP saga, have known for a long time that there is more to the tale of their civilisation than we have been willing to admit. The FNP had the worlds largest trading network for tens of thousands of years. They had a form of crypto key exchange which guaranteed peace between the tribes. They farmed and tamed the landmass of the Australian continent with fire, turning it into a self-reple…

> We (Europeans) can hardly do it for 200 years ..

It's hard to compare because fundamentally writing changed everything. Not just in Europe, but everywhere writing became common, oral histories more or less ceased. Photography and later the internet is changing this again.

Re: Is an Aboriginal tale of an ancient volcano the oldest story ever told?

#15

Post by fit2rule »

DennisP wrote: post #11
fit2rule wrote: post #6

Anyone paying attention to the FNP saga, have known for a long time that there is more to the tale of their civilisation than we have been willing to admit. The FNP had the worlds largest trading network for tens of thousands of years. They had a form of crypto key exchange which guaranteed peace between the tribes. They farmed and tamed the landmass of the Australian continent with fire, turning it into a self-reple…

> They had a form of crypto key exchange which guaranteed peace between the tribes. Could you expand on this?

Its related to the kinship system:

https://sydney.edu.au/about-us/vision-and-values/our-aborigi...

There is a recent paper which dives into this in more detail and reveals the surprising alignment with modern crypto principles based on a more rigorous analysis, but I can't seem to find it at the moment. It is frustratingly difficult topic to search for...

Essentially, clans and tribes would teach their representatives (usually children) specific stories (key) and kinship of their own tribes, then send them to be integrated into other clans - whenever members of the clans would meet, they would exchange stories - and they would recognise unfamiliar clan members by the stories and kinship they would announce, as per knowledge of the original representatives. This was used to keep the peace between tribes, and recognise newcomers to the resources of the area.

If I find the recent paper, I will follow up with a link .. its an immensely fascinating discovery.

Re: Is an Aboriginal tale of an ancient volcano the oldest story ever told?

#16

Post by fit2rule »

ogre_codes wrote: post #14
fit2rule wrote: post #6

Anyone paying attention to the FNP saga, have known for a long time that there is more to the tale of their civilisation than we have been willing to admit. The FNP had the worlds largest trading network for tens of thousands of years. They had a form of crypto key exchange which guaranteed peace between the tribes. They farmed and tamed the landmass of the Australian continent with fire, turning it into a self-reple…

> We (Europeans) can hardly do it for 200 years .. It's hard to compare because fundamentally writing changed everything. Not just in Europe, but everywhere writing became common, oral histories more or less ceased. Photography and later the internet is changing this again.

And by way of corollary, if you have a strong and resolute oral tradition that can stand the test of 10's of thousands of years, writing systems seem entirely inefficient.

Re: Is an Aboriginal tale of an ancient volcano the oldest story ever told?

#17

Post by dragonwriter »

fit2rule wrote: post #16
ogre_codes wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We (Europeans) can hardly do it for 200 years .. It's hard to compare because fundamentally writing changed everything. Not just in Europe, but everywhere writing became common, oral histories more or less ceased. Photography and later the internet is changing this again.

And by way of corollary, if you have a strong and resolute oral tradition that can stand the test of 10's of thousands of years, writing systems seem entirely inefficient.

Seems to me that even with strong oral history tradition, writing for documenting (and in case of dispute, providing evidence for) the content of nonpublished private agreements and certain other use cases has compelling advantages.

Re: Is an Aboriginal tale of an ancient volcano the oldest story ever told?

#18

Post by fit2rule »

dragonwriter wrote: post #17
fit2rule wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And by way of corollary, if you have a strong and resolute oral tradition that can stand the test of 10's of thousands of years, writing systems seem entirely inefficient.

Seems to me that even with strong oral history tradition, writing for documenting (and in case of dispute, providing evidence for) the content of nonpublished private agreements and certain other use cases has compelling advantages.

Indeed, and of course its all about the media. One could see how Gabarnmung is a very, very old library .. with distinct advantages.

Re: Is an Aboriginal tale of an ancient volcano the oldest story ever told?

#19

Post by Nition »

jbattle wrote: post #9

I ask this question out of more curiosity than skepticism, but how do the scientists in this article distinguish between stories that explain the 'appearance' of the volcano vs. the 'formation' of the volcano? As a point of comparison, there are a lot of stories about how Paul Bunyan created various lakes, mountains, and valleys. These are clearly invented backstories for part of the existing landscape. I can't find…

This was my first thought as well. Since this is a fictional story of how the volcano came to be, it seems like all we can know from it is that they were there at one of the multiple times when it erupted. The most recent was apparently around 8,000 years ago.

Re: Is an Aboriginal tale of an ancient volcano the oldest story ever told?

#20

Post by [deleted] »

dragonwriter wrote: post #17
fit2rule wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And by way of corollary, if you have a strong and resolute oral tradition that can stand the test of 10's of thousands of years, writing systems seem entirely inefficient.

Seems to me that even with strong oral history tradition, writing for documenting (and in case of dispute, providing evidence for) the content of nonpublished private agreements and certain other use cases has compelling advantages.

[deleted]
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