Tesla teardown finds electronics 6 years ahead of Toyota and VW • Hacker News Board

Re: Tesla teardown finds electronics 6 years ahead of Toyota and VW

#261

Post by onepremise » Mon, Feb 17, 2020, 6:53 PM UTC

soygul wrote: post #137

onepremise wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they could have used off-the-shelf components for the same task. They did use off-the-shelf components. They performed poorly and they resulted to developing a custom die with the right components to handle the task of computer vision. They explicitly stated this in multiple interviews. The off-the-shelf solution was crap.

AI/ML components change rapidly. What happens if they decide to use an entirely different approach. They develop a new chip? Still seems excessive to develop custom chips for unfinished/experimental tech like self-driving: https://www.theverge.com/2019/4/24/18514308/tesla-full-self-...

Point is they are doing it. Tesla does it. Apple does it. Microsoft does it. They are all developing their on hardware, and it's paying off, especially in Apple's and Tesla's use case. Research and development is the cornerstone of new innovation. Who cares if it's new tech. Not sure what you mean by "unfinished". They have a product that works. It's new and could use improvements, but Point is, they are doing it and winning. We can't sit around and wait for Ford and GMC, but these guys are being ran by dinosaurs. Stuck in the stone age, waiting for ICE to make a comeback. Here's the crutch of it all, ICE is pretty much out, with the old waterfall model, dead, old tech, EV is far more simple and a heck of a lot better. This whole ICE mentality where you release a car and it's "complete", has to go. This is why we have 'recalls'. Your car should continue to receive updates and improve as you drive it off the lot. Security updates are necessary, UI updates are necessary, performance and economy updates are necessary.

Re: Tesla teardown finds electronics 6 years ahead of Toyota and VW

#262

Post by Kirby64 » Mon, Feb 17, 2020, 6:54 PM UTC

ciconia wrote: post #6

I'd really like to see a simple EV for a change. No screens, no AI, no Autopilot, just a 5-seat vehicle with a reasonable range (400+ km) and AC.

What advantages are you looking to get for a super stripped down EV? Less potential maintenance cost? Cheaper?

It's pretty clear for more car buyers the market has spoken and folks want more infotainment/screens/AI/whatever, so it seems that type of vehicle is definitely going to become less and less common.

Re: Tesla teardown finds electronics 6 years ahead of Toyota and VW

#263

Post by Slartie » Mon, Feb 17, 2020, 7:05 PM UTC

aguyfromnb wrote: post #96

wil421 wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Battery production seems like a problem that can be solved right now with money. VW and Toyota could partner with a 3rd party (like Tesla and Panasonic) and build factories. Custom silicon seems like a much harder problem for VM/Toyota. Unless a supplier can build something for them I don’t see either company innovating like Tesla. Basically Tesla’s secret sauce is the Tech not the EV components.

> Custom silicon seems like a much harder problem for VM/Toyota What evidence is there that custom silicon has any advantage in the self-driving race, let alone in cost competitiveness?

None. And this is exactly the problem: Tesla might have a nice piece of silicon there, but that doesn't solve the problem of still being far, far away from having a working algorithm for level 5 self driving. They have a supercomputer in their cars, but can only run minesweeper on it, so to speak.

Their hardware (maybe, at best) solves one of the easy pieces of the self-driving puzzle. It doesn't get them any closer to solving the hard parts. But it sure helps from a marketing perspective, which is kind of important if you want to continue selling a $6000 feature that essentially is just a promise for the future and thus requires buyers to "believe".

Re: Tesla teardown finds electronics 6 years ahead of Toyota and VW

#264

Post by taylodl » Mon, Feb 17, 2020, 7:06 PM UTC

soygul wrote: post #18

Article praises Tesla's custom AI chip. It is something many criticize as a waste of development resources, while they could have used off-the-shelf components for the same task. Tesla's real advantage is their battery production. No one else can compete with them on battery price or production volume at a similar quality: https://www.cnbc.com/2020/02/10/teslas-competitors-play-catc...

I would argue this is Tesla's real business - battery production. I don't believe they intend to stay in the auto market forever. They're in the market to create demand for quality electric cars, goad the traditional auto makers into making them, and then selling those traditional auto makers the batteries they need to make them work well. I believe that is Tesla's long-term business plan.

Re: Tesla teardown finds electronics 6 years ahead of Toyota and VW

#265

Post by AtlasBarfed » Mon, Feb 17, 2020, 7:10 PM UTC

soygul wrote: post #18

Article praises Tesla's custom AI chip. It is something many criticize as a waste of development resources, while they could have used off-the-shelf components for the same task. Tesla's real advantage is their battery production. No one else can compete with them on battery price or production volume at a similar quality: https://www.cnbc.com/2020/02/10/teslas-competitors-play-catc...

Off the shelf parts can beat a custom ASIC? That is news to me.

Remember this isn't about the power of the ASIC processing, it is about minimizing the power consumption of the chip so the EV range is affected as little as possible.

Re: Tesla teardown finds electronics 6 years ahead of Toyota and VW

#266

Post by akmarinov » Mon, Feb 17, 2020, 7:10 PM UTC

KaiserPro wrote: post #48

This is grand, apart from the build quality of the mechanics is ~10 years behind. Go to a tesla showroom, Look at the doors of the model three. Note that they don't line up. Look at the paint job, notice that there are bumps and chips, especailly on the edges of the doors. This is on a _demo_ car, stuck in a showroom. these should be perfect. Even a budget Kia has better build quality than this. Its not the isolated…

The showroom comments are true for the US cars, but the China made ones are impeccable.

Re: Tesla teardown finds electronics 6 years ahead of Toyota and VW

#267

Post by AtlasBarfed » Mon, Feb 17, 2020, 7:11 PM UTC

soygul wrote: post #137

onepremise wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they could have used off-the-shelf components for the same task. They did use off-the-shelf components. They performed poorly and they resulted to developing a custom die with the right components to handle the task of computer vision. They explicitly stated this in multiple interviews. The off-the-shelf solution was crap.

AI/ML components change rapidly. What happens if they decide to use an entirely different approach. They develop a new chip? Still seems excessive to develop custom chips for unfinished/experimental tech like self-driving: https://www.theverge.com/2019/4/24/18514308/tesla-full-self-...

Based on their AI chip presentation, the important thing is that they have a software/hardware integrated design relationship. Your comment assumes they do this once and never again.

I seriously doubt Tesla is not actively improving the chip, and if they need a fundamentally new software approach, then they have the process/iteration loop established.

Re: Tesla teardown finds electronics 6 years ahead of Toyota and VW

#268

Post by t0mas88 » Mon, Feb 17, 2020, 7:15 PM UTC

igrekel wrote: post #254

t0mas88 wrote: post #191

This feels very much like a marketing fluff piece pushed by Tesla PR. Take this gem: "Young companies like Tesla, on the other hand, are not shackled to suppliers and are free to pursue the best technologies available." Try the automated windscreen wipers on any big car brand, they're mostly made by Bosch and they work, even on a 15 year old car. Then Tesla came along with their own approach, guess what, they didn't…

I agree with you this is mainly a fluff piece and must be taken with a grain of salt. I also agree that Tesla overcomplexifies some aspects of their cars and I would appreciate a simpler efficient design. After all, its the simplicity of an electric drivetrain that appealed to me. That being said, I'm puzzled when you say its mediocre in comparison. My 3 got smashed and I have a Mercedes replacement for a few days du…

Prices here are incomparable to the US due to tax, but a model S starts at 90k if you accept it being only available in white (nobody does at that price). If you pick any other color, reasonable rims and a "luxury interior" as you would expect on cars in this price range it's 110k to 120k euro. That's more than a full option BMW 5 series or Audi A6 and comparable to a very high-end Audi A8 or BMW 7 series.

Not sure about Mercedes, but I guess they gave you an A or B class without much luxury options as a loaner. I've seen those as rental cars as well, not great compared to their higher end cars. That would be a 30-40k kind of car here, the model 3 starts at 64k if you pick anything but white and want long range (not performance), and that's excluding autopilot.

So in my opinion they're pricing themselves into a market their cars can't really compete in.

Re: Tesla teardown finds electronics 6 years ahead of Toyota and VW

#269

Post by AtlasBarfed » Mon, Feb 17, 2020, 7:17 PM UTC

MagnumOpus wrote: post #227

SEJeff wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It isn't just production, but is also the chemistry. Tesla has the lowest amount of cobalt and nickel in their batteries of any battery manufacturer in the world. It makes their batteries cheaper, but also use less rare earth minerals (which are difficult to get ahold of at their scales). Tesla isn't sharing their chemistry, which is demonstrably better than anything LG Chem or Samsung, etc has been able to come up w…

> Tesla isn't sharing their chemistry Isn't it Panasonic that manufactures the batteries and sells them to Tesla? Can't they sell the same batteries to everyone else too?

And right now Tesla / Panasonic is maxed out in their battery production (still a scale that all other manufacturers fundamentally don't have the ability to do, much less profitably).

If/when Tesla increases battery production beyond its storage and car/semi lines of business, they will probably acquire/merge other car companies on the cheap.

The only thing that can eliminate Tesla's advantage is a catch-up solid battery tech that everyone has access to, and even then Tesla will have lots of infrastructure advantages.

Re: Tesla teardown finds electronics 6 years ahead of Toyota and VW

#270

Post by AtlasBarfed » Mon, Feb 17, 2020, 7:17 PM UTC

aguyfromnb wrote: post #76

soygul wrote: post #18

Article praises Tesla's custom AI chip. It is something many criticize as a waste of development resources, while they could have used off-the-shelf components for the same task. Tesla's real advantage is their battery production. No one else can compete with them on battery price or production volume at a similar quality: https://www.cnbc.com/2020/02/10/teslas-competitors-play-catc...

> Tesla's real advantage is their battery production Battery pack production. Tesla purchases batteries from Panasonic and LG (and thus is susceptible to that supply).

Tesla will make their own cells soon.