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Tesla teardown finds electronics 6 years ahead of Toyota and VW

asia.nikkei.com

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Re: Tesla teardown finds electronics 6 years ahead of Toyota and VW

#221

Post by mark-r »

netfl0 wrote: post #91
KaiserPro wrote: post #48

This is grand, apart from the build quality of the mechanics is ~10 years behind. Go to a tesla showroom, Look at the doors of the model three. Note that they don't line up. Look at the paint job, notice that there are bumps and chips, especailly on the edges of the doors. This is on a _demo_ car, stuck in a showroom. these should be perfect. Even a budget Kia has better build quality than this. Its not the isolated…

These seem like legitimate but insignificant issues. As long as it is functionally sound, I don't think minor cosmetic issues will materially impact public opinion. The general public is unaware of body panel alignment as a concept.

That's what Detroit car companies said when Japanese car quality started taking off.

The worst fit and finish I ever saw was my sister's 1980 Dodge Aspen.

Re: Tesla teardown finds electronics 6 years ahead of Toyota and VW

#222

Post by perl4ever »

michaelt wrote: post #216
jays wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you’re missing the point of what consumers find valuable about Tesla cars. It’s not the body or fancy interiors. The tech is what people want and because of that, cosmetic issues is an ok tradeoff. Of course, as other companies catch up on the Tech side, they’ll need to fix those issues, but they’ve got time.

It's true that people who have brought Teslas have accepted Tesla's current build quality. But it's the people who haven't brought Teslas where the company's growth will come from! The worry with things like gaps between panels isn't just cosmetic - it's that the process control to achieve "reliably waterproof even after 15 years" is harder than "visibly perfect" There was a time when a sunroof was a liability on a c…

You seem to think that disposing cars like iPhones is a problem. Sure, it's an environmental problem, and not what people who drive a Corolla for 20 years would prefer, but is it a practical problem for Tesla, or a huge opportunity? You know, look at Apple. They don't have to have everyone be a customer as long as it seems like the best people are and they make ungodly profits from each of them.

Re: Tesla teardown finds electronics 6 years ahead of Toyota and VW

#223

Post by MagnumOpus »

ameister14 wrote: post #204
rthomas6 wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where are you getting the 33k number? The model 3 is more like 40k base price.

in the article: "This is the takeaway from Nikkei Business Publications' teardown of the Model 3, the most affordable car in the U.S. automaker's all-electric lineup, starting at about $33,000."

That shows that Nikkei did not do their research. $33k is Tesla's deceptive advertising of "Price after Est. Savings". The cheapest car actually costs $40,000 plus tax.

Re: Tesla teardown finds electronics 6 years ahead of Toyota and VW

#224

Post by michaelt »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #126
mcv wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's absolutely an early-adopter surcharge. At luxury prices, because that's the only way to start a completely new car manufacturer at this scale. Most new car companies are small affairs that hand-build fairly simple cars at luxury prices from their garage. They get away with it because they offer something unique. So does Tesla, only they try to do it at scale.

It's not like this wasn't a publicly known fact, a strategy they officially wrote about.

Pretty sure the Roadster and the Model S were the luxury cars, and the Model 3 was supposed to be the affordable, non-luxury one.

Re: Tesla teardown finds electronics 6 years ahead of Toyota and VW

#225

Post by bretpiatt »

claudeganon wrote: post #175
SEJeff wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As of this very moment, the market caps of both are as follows: Toyota: 228.41 Billion Tesla: 144.2 Billion That's time and a half, but not more than twice. I find it stretching credibility to think Toyota could afford to buy a company with such a high market cap knowing the stock would rocket up on any rumor of an acquisition.

That Tesla’s market cap is anywhere close to Toyota’s should give you pause, given the difference in scale and market penetration of the two companies. Look, I’m a firm believer in the “market can stay irrational longer than you can remain solvent” and especially in our post-2008, QE money printing, Saudi sovereign wealth fund, unmoored-from-reality present. So honestly, who knows how it will all pan out. Maybe we no…

Tesla isn't just an auto manufacturer. It is also a distribution network, a direct dealer network, service network, and fueling station system. They aren't displacing the market opportunity of just Toyota / VAG / etc. They are displacing the market opportunity of much more of the value chain.

The Toyota engineer worried about jobs in the supply chain is just the tip of the ice berg. ICE cars are substantially more complex and require much more regular maintenance (all the way down to increased tire and brake wear).

Incumbent auto makers not only have to worry about resistance to change upstream, they need to worry about downstream too.

[I hold no equity short or long position on Tesla now, have not over the past few years, and do not plan to going forward. My personal investing is outside of public markets in general.]

Re: Tesla teardown finds electronics 6 years ahead of Toyota and VW

#226

Post by perl4ever »

gdubs wrote: post #151
KaiserPro wrote: post #48

This is grand, apart from the build quality of the mechanics is ~10 years behind. Go to a tesla showroom, Look at the doors of the model three. Note that they don't line up. Look at the paint job, notice that there are bumps and chips, especailly on the edges of the doors. This is on a _demo_ car, stuck in a showroom. these should be perfect. Even a budget Kia has better build quality than this. Its not the isolated…

I hear this fit and finish critique of Tesla often. But the whole package of a Tesla is clearly compelling to people, who are willing to pay a luxury price for it. High end Volvo’s are a good example of old-school quality — gorgeous interiors, beautiful trim. But they’re still predominantly internal combustion engine era designs. The height of it from a luxury finish standpoint. But, Tesla’s different . Maybe it’s th…

"But they’re still predominantly internal combustion engine era designs"

This is implicitly saying that what matters is not even the specific car you are buying, but the image of the company and their entire lineup being electric.

This cuts in the opposite direction for me - it is a significant reason why I wouldn't buy a Tesla (other than the price). The company is so tied to Elon that if some sort of scandal happened to him, it would instantly taint owners of the cars.

Re: Tesla teardown finds electronics 6 years ahead of Toyota and VW

#227

Post by MagnumOpus »

SEJeff wrote: post #145
wil421 wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Battery production seems like a problem that can be solved right now with money. VW and Toyota could partner with a 3rd party (like Tesla and Panasonic) and build factories. Custom silicon seems like a much harder problem for VM/Toyota. Unless a supplier can build something for them I don’t see either company innovating like Tesla. Basically Tesla’s secret sauce is the Tech not the EV components.

It isn't just production, but is also the chemistry. Tesla has the lowest amount of cobalt and nickel in their batteries of any battery manufacturer in the world. It makes their batteries cheaper, but also use less rare earth minerals (which are difficult to get ahold of at their scales). Tesla isn't sharing their chemistry, which is demonstrably better than anything LG Chem or Samsung, etc has been able to come up w…

> Tesla isn't sharing their chemistry

Isn't it Panasonic that manufactures the batteries and sells them to Tesla? Can't they sell the same batteries to everyone else too?

Re: Tesla teardown finds electronics 6 years ahead of Toyota and VW

#228

Post by pacaro »

emiliobumachar wrote: post #188
pacaro wrote: post #131

It feels to me like there is a symmetry of arrogance here. Traditional car companies are finding that making an electric car is hard (emphasis on electric) Tesla is finding that making an electric car is hard (emphasis on car)

Interesting, but why would you think any of them ever thought that making an electric car would be easy?

Good question, and I don't know that easy/hard is the correct dimension here.

They do seem to be been caught off guard by some combination of how quickly the electric car market has taken off, and what is possible to build.

There seems to have been a reliance on the argument that people need a range of X and because that isn't achievable the market will be small.

I think that complacency and/or conservatism may be the real issues here.

It's not entirely dissimilar to the slow response of the American car industry to the rise in quality of Japanese cars. But that also provides a model for how they might (albeit slowly) rise to the challenge

Re: Tesla teardown finds electronics 6 years ahead of Toyota and VW

#229

Post by maxcan »

KaiserPro wrote: post #48

This is grand, apart from the build quality of the mechanics is ~10 years behind. Go to a tesla showroom, Look at the doors of the model three. Note that they don't line up. Look at the paint job, notice that there are bumps and chips, especailly on the edges of the doors. This is on a _demo_ car, stuck in a showroom. these should be perfect. Even a budget Kia has better build quality than this. Its not the isolated…

I have an early VIN (004xxx series) model 3 from 2018. One of the earliest non employee deliveries. There are some panel gaps.

Judging a Tesla by the panel gaps is reminiscent of the Blackberry execs judging early iPhones by battery life (ironically). The game has changed.

Or, in other words:

  No wireless. Less space than a nomad. Lame.
https://slashdot.org/story/01/10/23/1816257/apple-releases-i...

Re: Tesla teardown finds electronics 6 years ahead of Toyota and VW

#230

Post by caconym_ »

claudeganon wrote: post #206
caconym_ wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Tesla hasn’t show any capacity to deliver quality cars at scale, nor provide service to them, whatever their ambitions. Combined with all their SEC problems, it’s reminiscent of Preston Tucker’s car company What universe are you living in? Can't be the same one I'm in ... pretty cool, though, that HN has implemented a multiverse-spanning internet forum.

> What universe are you living in? Can't be the same one I'm in ... I feel the same when I see people falling for all the marketing hype around Musk and his companies. He’s definitely inherited Jobs’ capacity for reality distortion. But Apple is still chugging on long on that, despite years of quality and design problems, so who know how it will all pan out.

If you want to argue that Tesla is overvalued, there are perfectly reasonable arguments to be made in that vein. But comparing them (well on their way to half a million vehicles delivered) in the general sense with a company that folded after selling 50 cars is just absurd, and makes you look like a crank. It overshadows any trace of validity in whatever you're saying.

What about SpaceX? Their technical achievements are literally unprecedented, and they are dominating a market that has been the sole domain of an increasingly consolidated handful of incumbent military-industrial giants for the better part of a century. Dismissing those achievements as marketing hype is, again, absurd.

I am shaking my head in sad bafflement. Your whole schtick just reads like sour grapes, and why? If you want to have a real conversation about this stuff, you need to get over the edgy negativity.

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