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Aviation industry tries to go green

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Re: Aviation industry tries to go green

#91
Aviation more than any earlier transport mode is fundamentally based on high power-to-output engines and fuels with both high volumetric and weight energy density.

It's little surprise that within years of practicable petrol-fueled automobile engines, powered flight became a reality. Within a quarter century, propeller-driven craft had all but achieved their design zenith (the DC-3), and jet propulsion was being deployed within four decades.

Aerodynamics, controls, navigation, traffic control, and business systems around passenger, freight, and parcel delivery have accounted for most advances since.

Notable among failures have been both supersonic and lighter-than-air craft. Both see limited (mostly military) use. Commercial viability has been lacking.

The alternatives to the present subsonic, large-scale, heavier-than-air, fuel-based transports are ... limited.

Electric propulsion solves the power-to-weight problem (electric motors are remarkably poweful and efficient), but not the energy-storage problem. Batteries have at best about 1/10th the energy storage by weight of hydrocarbon fuels.

Supersonic flight simply requires too much fuel, on top of other environmental concerns: noise, high-altitude pollution. Unscheduled subsonic jets achieve better flexibility than supersonic scheduled flights for those needing (and able to affort) it.

Lighter-than-air craft seem to fragile, finicky, dangerous, and expensive to operate. Changed air travel economics might address that last, but the fact that ultra-lightweight, tremendously voluminous structures capable of lifting only modest cargos and subject to extreme peril from high winds and inclement weather ... does not seem promising.

(Though Germany did operate international Zeppelin service for much of the 1930s. I may be overly pessimistic.)

There are alternatives to fossil hydrocarbon fuels. Most have extreme shortcomings.

Hydrogen as an energy carrier is possible but has remarkably low volumetric energy density, as well as poor storage and handling capabilities. It's unlikely to be utilised.

Biofuels can be effectively precise analogues of present avgas (petrol) and jet (kerosene) fuels. The problem is that even the small fraction of energy demand represented by aviation fuel use is beyond the capabilities of agriculture to produce. In 2014, Boeing touted "the biggest breakthrough that there is out there" in biofuels.

At 75 gal/acre-yr (mean of reported production) and 16 billion gallons of aviation fuel consumption in the US (2013 BTS RITA estimate), 21.3 million acres would have to be under cultivation. That's about 330,000 mile2, or a region 577 miles on a side.

On the map, you could start in Shreveport, LA, head west to Hobbs, NM, north to Denver, CO, east to St. Joseph, MO, and south to Shreveport again, traversing seven states and completely bounding two (Kansas and Oklahoma).

https://old.reddit.com/r/dredmorbius/comments/1wo2hl/boeings...

The one possible alternative I've seen, and one which isn't obviously* impractical, is fuel synthesis: creating the liquid hydrocarbon fuels powered flight is dependent on from non-fossil sources.

The notion's not new -- it strongly resembles the coal-to-liquid-fuels process employed in Germany during WWII, and in South Africa since the 1950s. The notion was suggested by M. King Hubbert in 1964 (http://www.hubbertpeak.com/hubbert/EnergyResources.pdf (PDF) p. 139), and has been explored at the Brookhaven National Laboratory, M.I.T., US Naval Research Laboratory, and a Google X Projects startup (since folded), over the past five decades.

The chemistry is sound. Scaling to military or commercial capacities, and economics, have been found wanting.

There's not much in the energy situation which gives me much hope. This remains among the very few bright spots, despite 50+ years of less-than-overwhelming progress.

(I'd looked at a fair bit of the history and research a few years ago on Reddit, most represented in this search: https://old.reddit.com/r/dredmorbius/search?q=fischer+tropsc... )

Re: Aviation industry tries to go green

#92

Serious question, pardon my ignorance. How much is the per capita fuel consumption compared to a petrol car? Small steps are good too but I sincerely hope we can spend that effort in safety and perhaps speed. Societies progress as distances get shorter.

We're interested in is how much they contribute to global warming, there's a multiplier compared to burning the equivalent fuel on the ground.

Re: Aviation industry tries to go green

#93
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Blimps are slow. That means they’d probably cost more than commercial jets, because the crew is being paid for a longer period of time. It also seems like jets can fly in far more inclement weather than blimps, but I’m no expert in that.

They're also fragile, handle poorly in adverse conditions, and have little excess lifting capacity. In a world in which heavier-than-air flight becomes less affordable, there might be some niche uses. In general, my sense is that lighter-than-air craft are simply too close to the limits of potential engineering and materials.

Sure there are drawbacks, but they can be mitigated to some extent by engineering, and we're not in a position to be choosers about it. Airplanes were also all of those things before enormous amounts of engineering investment started being poured into it, continuing incremental improvements across 100 years.

The question is not "how can we keep our air travel habits?" after all.

Re: Aviation industry tries to go green

#94
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Non-CO2 emissions are bad for us now, but their long-term impact on the future is insignificant. They are more bad now precisely because they don't just stick around forever, unlike CO2 they still contain bound energy and will happily participate in all kinds of undesirable reactions.

This implies that synthetic jet fuel isn't the answer either because it will still create local pollution. Does using hydrogen prevent these types of emissions?

If you take a slightly closer look at the infamous diesel NOx emissions you'll notice that the nitrogen isn't coming from the diesel fuel, it's coming from the air intake. Our atmosphere is mostly nitrogen, with oxygen on second place, some argon on distant third and all the remaining bad stuff making up less than a tenth of a percentage point by volume. So all that nasty NOx is just clean air that has been thrown into molecular disarray by being present while some unrelated fuel has been violently oxidized. 2H2+O2 is a much more straight-forward reaction than cracking long-chained hydrocarbons, so maybe there are less of those side effects, but I doubt that it would be entirely free from that (I'm not a chemist at all, as you will have surely guessed by now).

In terms of CO2 true synfuels would be clean in so far as the CO2 would have been captured earlier. The only feasible way to do this would be biomass and the synfuel would either be derived directly from a plant-based source or reuse CO2 captured from terrestrial biomass burning methanize H2 from an electrolysis plant (that would typically be run as an opportunistic sink for intermittent renewable electricity).

Re: Aviation industry tries to go green

#95
post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're also fragile, handle poorly in adverse conditions, and have little excess lifting capacity. In a world in which heavier-than-air flight becomes less affordable, there might be some niche uses. In general, my sense is that lighter-than-air craft are simply too close to the limits of potential engineering and materials.

Sure there are drawbacks, but they can be mitigated to some extent by engineering, and we're not in a position to be choosers about it. Airplanes were also all of those things before enormous amounts of engineering investment started being poured into it, continuing incremental improvements across 100 years. The question is not "how can we keep our air travel habits?" after all.

First, I applaud you on your conclusion, because I feel that point is lost on many who seem to view the present state as some ordained condition to extend through all time.

Air travel has been transformational, fast, reasonably convenient, and cheap. It's also been an accident of geohistory, in many regards. The coming / current fuels transition will raise the costs of many things, transport included, and air transport most especially. One of the lessons of history is that the consequences of costs falling, as many have through the industrial revolutions, have subtle and profound influences, mostly unanticipated by those who first started down specific technical pathways.

My sense is that rising costs will operate similarly. We'll have much of the knowledge and technical understanding achieved over the past 200 years, but we'll see costs rising or capabilities falling in many domains. And that will have profound and subtle ripple effects.

Small aircraft may be possible, and perhaps slow airships, but the era of mass bulk human transcontinental transport, quite probably not so much. Or possible, but at prices at some multiple of today: 2x, 10x, 100x, 1,000x. Or transoceanic travel of 1-3 days, rather than 6-18 hours.

Getting back to airships: there are only so many materials available. An airship requires some sort of frame, some sort of lifting gas containment, motors, an energy source, and passenger or cargo facilities. Even excluding hydrogen as a lifting gas, they've proved expensive and dangerous. Vehicles such as LEMV / Airlander 10 are not strictly rigid, but is in part supported by pneumatic pressure. The craft itself was written off after coming loose from moorings in high winds.

Top speeds will be on the order of 160 - 240 kph, rather than 1,000 kph for jet aircraft. Flight levels will likely be I've watched and read breathless accounts of an airship revival for decades. To date they've failed to meet promised capabilities.

Re: Aviation industry tries to go green

#96
The best prospect for the future of clean aviation depends on moving to hydrogen fuel. The appeal of hydrogen arises from its extreme energy-mass density: a kg of hydrogen offers several times the oxidized enthalpy of a kg of kerosene, with zero carbon pollution, so much less fuel would need to be hoisted up to 40,000 feet. Hydrogen-burning aircraft could devote the difference to more payload, or to the same payload with a much lighter airframe and smaller engines. Older aircraft simply could not compete. The hydrogen could power fuel cells for electric drive, or be burned in turbines, or some of both, e.g. turbines for takeoff, fuel cells for cruise.

The only problem with hydrogen is that, even liquified, it takes up a lot of space. This demands a change to an architecture with more interior space, such as a lifting body (or just a wider body), to provide room for more tankage. More tankage for carbon fuel would be pointless because the extra weight would displace cargo lifting capacity; anyway, present aircraft have enough range.

Liquid hydrogen tankage has become much more practical since the discovery of aerogels. Mass production of aerogel enables practical commercial liquid-hydrogen tankage.

Hydrogen for aviation is much more practical than for other modes of transportation, because there is no distribution problem. Hydrogen can be produced anywhere using solar and wind generating systems, operating whenever the sun is out or the wind is blowing. The oxygen also produced, that would otherwise be vented, could also be liquified and and carried on board for cruise at very high altitudes, further improving efficiency. A few airports used by long-haul aircraft, locally supplied, would suffice to bootstrap the industry.

Re: Aviation industry tries to go green

#97
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My source is my father, who flew 23 different types of aircraft, single engine, multi engine, piston and jet. He spent some years as a flight instructor, and a crash investigator for the Air Force. He said not properly warming up the piston engine meant that there was cold oil still in the reservoir, and sucking that into the engine would cause it to stall, usually right after takeoff, causing many accidents. I've re…

I can see this in my car. If the engine isn't warmed up, pulling into traffic often meant it would stall right in the middle of the lane I'm trying to cross, leaving me vulnerable to being rammed. Sounds like your car is broken if that really happens. A functioning car engine won't stall when pulling into traffic because of cold oil. Surely it will just wear out horribly and its lifespan will shorten to a fraction if…

> Sounds like your car is broken if that really happens.

Yeah, it happens with every carburetor car I've ever had, less so with fuel injected ones. It takes about a half mile of driving to where it won't happen.

Re: Aviation industry tries to go green

#98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't mean a gas turbine engine, but a piston engine designed for aircraft. (Gas turbines don't run on avgas.) With a quick look I can't find a cite for my claim, just that the British did use Merlin aviation engines in some of their tanks.

You'd made a possibly related claim a few months back, if that stirs any memories: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21953121

"I have seen desperate mechanics try to warm up their engines with a naked flame in the hope of inducing them to start."

  -- "Stuka Pilot" by Hans Rudel, pg. 50

Re: Aviation industry tries to go green

#99
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My source is my father, who flew 23 different types of aircraft, single engine, multi engine, piston and jet. He spent some years as a flight instructor, and a crash investigator for the Air Force. He said not properly warming up the piston engine meant that there was cold oil still in the reservoir, and sucking that into the engine would cause it to stall, usually right after takeoff, causing many accidents. I've re…

I can see this in my car. If the engine isn't warmed up, pulling into traffic often meant it would stall right in the middle of the lane I'm trying to cross, leaving me vulnerable to being rammed. Sounds like your car is broken if that really happens. A functioning car engine won't stall when pulling into traffic because of cold oil. Surely it will just wear out horribly and its lifespan will shorten to a fraction if…

Cold oil lubricates better.

It has higher viscosity, meaning it takes more energy to move it out of the way. As it warms up, its lubricating power decreases, but not too much, and its viscosity decreases, enabling better engine efficency. A cold engine is less efficient, but only for a short time, until it heats up.

Oil too thick to pump rarely happens in normal life. In arctic and subarctic conditions people use electric heaters to keep the oil thin enough to pump.

Re: Aviation industry tries to go green

#100
post #74
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every single mode of transport is subsidized so its hard to say if air transportation is getting more or less incentives. Using Swedish numbers and some estimates. Tax on car owners only pay around 1/3 of the road network. The ticket price on train, according to a person working in that space, said that the ticket paid about 2/3 of the costs that the train company paid for any given trip. The train network also get i…

Thanks for the detailed info. I honestly don't know the details well enough and hence framed my comment as a bit of an open question. This makes me wonder, in Germany it is possible to get a decently priced domestic train ticket or at least a comparable price to a domestic flight but one needs to book far in advance whereas this isn't the case when booking a flight. If it's not subsidies and taxes what is making trai…

Infrastructure costs, they are absolutely massive compared to what you need for planes.
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