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I Learned French in 12 Months

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Re: I Learned French in 12 Months

#241

Post by fnord123 »

thedirt0115 wrote: post #204
rajlego wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you heard of Stephen Krashen's Input Hypothesis? [1] There are a couple of parts to it but it essentially says that linguistic competence (a fancy way to say your innate knowledge of a language) only increases when you take in input. If you talk all day that doesn't really make you any better (since you don't learn anything new) unless you use a process like deliberate feedback to be corrected. Personally I thin…

What of the folks who have watched countless hours of anime, but still can't speak Japanese? Input alone is not enough, at least not for adults wanting to become fluent from what I've seen.

The input certainly helps which explains the divide between English levels in countries that subttle and countries that dub English language shows and movies.

Re: I Learned French in 12 Months

#242

Post by oblio »

sidmitra wrote: post #192
BTBurke wrote: post #182

I don't believe there is a shortcut for "hacking" languages. I'm a diplomat, and currently learning my fourth language to the C1+ level. When we learn languages, it's a full time job. It was 9 months to learn Mandarin to a B1, 6 months to a C1+ in Spanish, and I'm currently at a B1 in Estonian after 5 months. There are several things I think are crucial after years of full time study (note: this assumes you're going…

> difference between intermediate and advanced is the ability to move from discussing only facts to making a coherent argument. This is a brilliant point and never thought about it this way. I've spoken spanish for 5 years but i've always felt some things lacking when i've tried to make an coherent argument about politics for eg. One more thing i'd like to add is 'humor'. If you can make jokes or be sarcastic to nati…

And you definitely need to cross that barrier if your goal is to integrate in a community, for good. Otherwise you'll always be an outsider.

Re: I Learned French in 12 Months

#243

Post by oblio »

orthoxerox wrote: post #219
animalnewbie wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've seen computational biologists , mechanical engineers , non-programmjng entrepreneurs but what does a diplomat do on HN?

Why can't a diplomat have a tech-related hobby? Most people outside tech have hobbies that are unrelated to their daily job.

Heck, I work in tech and my hobby is history. I would have probably majored in history if it didn't lead to a crappy career where I'm from.

Re: I Learned French in 12 Months

#244

Post by psychoslave »

BTBurke wrote: post #182

I don't believe there is a shortcut for "hacking" languages. I'm a diplomat, and currently learning my fourth language to the C1+ level. When we learn languages, it's a full time job. It was 9 months to learn Mandarin to a B1, 6 months to a C1+ in Spanish, and I'm currently at a B1 in Estonian after 5 months. There are several things I think are crucial after years of full time study (note: this assumes you're going…

Thank you very much for this feedback. I'm estonished of the fact that you target an on the fly translation to your (presumably) native language. I mean, for me it seems like a far harder task than to note what you understand in the source language directly.

Actually, I often find that I can fluently exchange with someone speaking English (which is not my native language), but if a third person ask me to translate, it's really a higher level of complexity to find the relevant expressions.

I understand that at the start, one feel more at ease to use its know point of reference in languages already known, but at some point this scaffold is only an additional layer that slows down your expression flow, isn't it?

Re: I Learned French in 12 Months

#245

Post by rq1 »

throwaway41968 wrote: post #168
rq1 wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Except the subjunctive almost completely lost its initial semantic value of expressing the hypothetical or fictious in French That’s definitely not true, and what follows is thus complete bs sorry. Where does this come from to begin with? I even miss Spanish’ subjunctive future in French! It’s not only a mistake wrt the language rules but also a logical one, if intended initially to state facts. > Generally speakin…

>That’s definitely not true, and what follows is thus complete bs sorry. Where does this come from to begin with? Alright I have my trusty Grammaire espagnole (Beschrelle) at hand, and here are the differences in use of the subjunctive. The following cases involve the indicative in Spanish and the subjunctive in French: -A concessive clause, whose opposition relies on a reality-grounded fact ( aunque està lloviendo /…

> I can go on if you like. Very clearly, Spanish's use of the subjunctive very closely follows

Oh yes go on please. But you were originally stating that subjunctive in French lost its semantic value. Now you making it narrow and added "compared to Spanish".

> I guess Spanish and Italian speakers aren't wiping their butts according to your point of view

I think you missed the point. It was meant to say that misuse of tenses and moods may alter causality and in general events chaining is not commutative (poop o wipe != wipe o poop).

> And yet I'm sure you don't have any problems expressing the hypothetical > Are you seriously arguing that languages that lack the tense and mood system

By the very definition of "concise", yes. I said you can do it in any language, but the formulation at some point will become cumbersome.

Re: I Learned French in 12 Months

#246

Post by oblio »

jacquesm wrote: post #235
abnry wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am of the opinion that many people who want to learn a language don't have any real reason to learn a second language other than to say they know two languages. Unless you have extended family or somehow became smitten with a foreign country, I am almost certain this is the case. So any attempts are really halfhearted and very little progress is made because the commitment is so large. This is why, if I ever get ar…

> I am of the opinion that many people who want to learn a language don't have any real reason to learn a second language other than to say they know two languages. Your opinion is a pretty localized one. For many people learning a second language is not an option, it is a must. I would have a very hard time functioning in my field without access to a second language.

Agreed. If you work in high level tech, for big companies, possibly with international companies, if you want a decent career, your English better be awesome.

You can make do with less, but it's probably going to have an impact on your career, at some point.

Re: I Learned French in 12 Months

#247

Post by kelnos »

jacquesm wrote: post #232
BTBurke wrote: post #182

I don't believe there is a shortcut for "hacking" languages. I'm a diplomat, and currently learning my fourth language to the C1+ level. When we learn languages, it's a full time job. It was 9 months to learn Mandarin to a B1, 6 months to a C1+ in Spanish, and I'm currently at a B1 in Estonian after 5 months. There are several things I think are crucial after years of full time study (note: this assumes you're going…

> check your comprehension by translating their answers to English Why to English?

I assume he means "to your native language", not to English, specifically.

Re: I Learned French in 12 Months

#248

Post by Ajef »

monster_group wrote: post #205
hombre_fatal wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Getting to a solid level of competency in a language actually is not that hard. It just requires dedication and consistent practice. Though that's why it's hard. Just like eating healthy and exercise isn't hard, just requires dedication, yet notice how few people have a particularly good looking body. The opportunity cost of learning a language is also immense. I've spent an incredible amount of time listening to a…

100% agree on the opportunity cost. I taught myself Sanskrit to the level that I now teach two batches of students at different proficiency levels. I really wanted to learn it and I did it. I spent a lot of time to get to this level. Now I am learning to play guitar. I am finding it even more difficult than learning Sanskrit and everyday I find myself questioning the opportunity cost. Do I really want to play guitar…

It's hard to know when certain proficencies will have an ROI. Learning to play guitar might be very valuable to you if you end up having children who want to play/enjoy the music. What I think really matters too is whether there is enough reward along the way while learning.

Re: I Learned French in 12 Months

#249

Post by rimliu »

rajlego wrote: post #203
tmountain wrote: post #108

I've been hacking language learning for about five years, and I've spent ridiculous amounts of time trying and reading about different strategies. I've been to Cuba, Mexico, Spain, and Puerto Rico to try immersion in different settings. Getting to a solid level of competency in a language actually is not that hard. It just requires dedication and consistent practice. That said, native speakers operate on a different…

I really like this site [1] because it shows you just how big the gap between native and non-native speakers is. Non-native speakers generally know around 10,000 words while adult native speakers tend to know upwards of 20,000 words. I think the reason that getting to real native level fluency is extremely hard is that they have thousands more hours of input than you do and it's very hard to make up for that in real…

That page made me feel good about myself: English is my fourth language, and it estimates my vocabulary to be at 23200 words.

Re: I Learned French in 12 Months

#250

Post by dlkf »

brendyn wrote: post #215
thedirt0115 wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What of the folks who have watched countless hours of anime, but still can't speak Japanese? Input alone is not enough, at least not for adults wanting to become fluent from what I've seen.

When they do that, they are focusing on the English subtitles and effectively filtering out the Japanese. If they tried to hide the subtitles and only glimpse at them occasionally they would start to see gradual improvement. Many people won't because they'll find they suddenly can't understand most things and it becomes exhausting. by that that's what it's like when you are really learning. That being said it's still…

> I apologise for the "It's both right and wrong at the same time" kind of answer. In summary I believe BTBurke is a fantastic language learner, but if you look closely at what they are doing, you'll see they are providing themselves with plenty of comprehensible input, and the production/output as actually a more minor part that facilitates this input.

Language is not a one way street. Being able to manipulate another person's actions and words through speech is as much a part of language understanding as being in a position to have others manipulate your actions and words.

Part of knowing a language therefore is being able to speak and write it. In order to learn how to speak and write it, you are not going to get away without speaking and writing it.

And even if Krashen's hypothesis that input is ultimately the whole story were true (which by definition it isn't), production would still play a critical role in memorization. Every time you struggle to find a word and eventually conjure it, it gets reinforced.

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