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South Korea switching their 3.3M PCs to Linux

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Re: South Korea switching their 3.3M PCs to Linux

#81
post #55

Windows 10 was the last nail in the coffin for Windows....

Windows 10 seems to run faster on older computers than even 7 did. Not saying it's my favorite thing, but rolling updates and decent built-in anti-malware make it a fairly good option these days, and with WSL (Windows Subsystem for Linux) and Multipass, there's a lot of Linux stuff that can be done on Windows. IMO, Windows 10, the separated kernel stuff they're doing, and their current support for Open Source softwar…

>Not saying it's my favorite thing, but rolling updates and decent built-in anti-malware make it a fairly good option these days, and with WSL (Windows Subsystem for Linux) and Multipass, there's a lot of Linux stuff that can be done on Windows.

Those are great features and welcome to keep Windows 10 machines from turning into yet another botnet. But for some people the concern isn't about updates, it's about privacy. And frankly unless you otherwise need to use your Windows PC, there's no compelling reason to use it over a Linux machine.

>IMO, Windows 10, the separated kernel stuff they're doing, and their current support for Open Source software is the best thing Microsoft has done in a long time.

Yes they're doing a great job of improving Windows and converging Windows into a useful platform for Linux developers. However Microsoft being Microsoft there's always the fear this is another Embrace, Extend, Extinguish initiative. And here's the irony - as it becomes easier to do Linuxy things in Windows, it also becomes apparent that except for Windows-only tasks, there's no compelling reason to prefer Windows over Linux. Particularly in light of their mandatory user data collection.

At some point perhaps Microsoft will relent and make their Semi-annual Channel and Long Term Service Channel licenses more generally available. But for now their data collection is turning some privacy-minded people away from Windows.

If I could pay a reasonable price and reclaim my privacy I suppose I would, despite the fact this is Microsoft taking something from me and then charging me to get it back. But the cost of entry for a legitimate license to a less invasive version of Windows is just too high; hundreds for a mini purchase of servers + some CALs, or several hundred for a Visual Studio (formerly MSDN) Subscription.

I've met Microsoft in the middle and purchased a license but run it in a VM. The VM is on just long enough to patch itself and do the Windows-only things I need to do such as run Tax Cut to fill out this year's tax return. Sure I could ditch Windows and do my taxes online but that's just feeding my data into another marketing machine. I can't and don't claim to represent the majority view, but I doubt I'm alone in having marketing / data collection fatigue. And frankly I do resent Microsoft's deciding data collection is the new minimum price of entry to use their software.

In short: you're right they're doing some great things, but (for some of us) it's not about that. My apologies if that comes off a bit ranty. I suppose it's a hot button issue for me.

Re: South Korea switching their 3.3M PCs to Linux

#82
post #68
post #62

I said this 10 years ago: if government from many developed nations pool their resources together, we could have a serious alternative to Windows and Windows Server. Most of the base elements are already there.

We already have a better alternative to Windows Server. It's Linux.

For server that's a good argument - for end users client systems not so much

Re: South Korea switching their 3.3M PCs to Linux

#83
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More on TMaxSoft. This software firm builds many 'hard' softwares like OS, DBMS or even MapReduce data processing cluster(like hadoop and spark). One might naturally ask 'why build a wheel while there are plenty already built by open source developers?' and economically aware person might also ask 'how are selling their products while competing against ubuntu, postgresql, spark?' Cloning something from scratch and le…

> Enforcing home grown products to average customers, subsidizing one specific firm to take all domestic market share is how Samsung and Hyundai made its way to top global firms. I can see how this would ensure domestic success, but how does that translate to 'top global firm' status unless the products / features & pricing are significantly superior?

It basically gives domestic firms breathing room to survive and grow, versus being suffocated by the currently superior products or foreign firms. The hope then is that in the future, with a stronger financial footing, these firms' products will improve to be truly competitive with those of the global competitors.

At least in hardware/manufacturing, both South Korea and China have done this with great success thus far.

Re: South Korea switching their 3.3M PCs to Linux

#84
post #14
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Currently Cern is having a go at replacing all microsoft products, due to high cost. https://home.cern/news/news/computing/migrating-open-source-... The institute is big enough that it might be a source of inspiration or knowledge for local governments in Europe.

From my own small slice of experience, it seems likely related to a handful of issues: End Users: Who are addicted to using Outlook being their job. End Users: Who still need to inter-operate with others using MS products. MS Access possibly being the 'best' CRUD interface. (I think it even comes with an expense database template? I think it might also connect to ODBC setups, which are their own nightmare but at leas…

Outlook is still the best MUA (Mail User Agent)

Re: South Korea switching their 3.3M PCs to Linux

#85
post #68
post #62

I said this 10 years ago: if government from many developed nations pool their resources together, we could have a serious alternative to Windows and Windows Server. Most of the base elements are already there.

We already have a better alternative to Windows Server. It's Linux.

There are many reasons corporations choose Windows Desktop and Windows Server, many of which are not limited to backwards compatibility with existing infrastructure. It would take a large amount of money and resources to change over that infrastructure, and while it is doable, an intermediary has t he potential to save governments and corporations a lot of money and time.

Something like a server version of ReactOS[1] would allow existing infrastructure to continue to work as governments and corporations phase out their reliance on a foreign company's product.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ReactOS

Re: South Korea switching their 3.3M PCs to Linux

#86
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The average CERN user is way more tech savvy than random government workers.

Government workers in South Korea are actually some of the brightest in the country. The jobs are extremely competitive and you have to score very highly on a set of standardize tests to qualify.

Ah a test, that's defiantly going to get the "best" at passing tests whether this leads to good policy and implementation is arguable, the Active X debacle suggests not.

It is probably more to do with the cultural influence of the Imperial examination

Re: South Korea switching their 3.3M PCs to Linux

#87
post #68
post #62

I said this 10 years ago: if government from many developed nations pool their resources together, we could have a serious alternative to Windows and Windows Server. Most of the base elements are already there.

We already have a better alternative to Windows Server. It's Linux.

As much as I want to believe it, Linux is still quite lagging in the personal computing area, where hardware support, graphics support, creativity application support, and enterprise support are still far behind Windows/Mac. Linux still has a long way to go.

Re: South Korea switching their 3.3M PCs to Linux

#88
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Relevant well-known case: when Munich switched to Linux and then switched back to Windows 10 https://www.engadget.com/2017/11/26/linux-pioneer-munich-swi...

Which is, of course, the canonical example of why all governments should do it. The project didn't fail, it was on pace to succeed, which made Microsoft swoop in and basically bribe them to switch back. The lesson being, switch to Linux. Either you'll switch and save money, or Microsoft will bribe you not to and you'll save money.

The linked headline from the OPs post about the switch:

> Linux in Munich: 'No compelling technical reason to return to Windows,' says city's IT chief

https://www.techrepublic.com/article/linux-in-munich-no-comp...

The reason was probably a shift in IT management who wanted to keep things "simple" with some vague thing about keeping one platform since they had kept previous windows machines around which were apparently "absolutely needed". It takes heart in the management to keep Linux around, which isn't always a reliable thing. Even when there was no "technical" need to use the more expensive Windows option.

But this sounds 100% like a Microsoft sales/marketing job, which they are amazing at. They've really perfected selling to big firms, which you could see with the growth of Azure. Which I witnessed when they unleashed their sales machine on startups to get them to use it, and it was quite interesting to see in action.

Re: South Korea switching their 3.3M PCs to Linux

#89
It will be interesting to see how it will work.

If they have been Windows for so long and all the way up to Windows 7, they must have a lot of software and more interestingly hardware that Win7 manages to get working.

All sorts of bits and bobs hardware will potentially make trouble.

I also see in the article: "The South Korean government also plans to implement a Desktop as a Service (DaaS) that uses a virtual PC environment that runs on a cloud by the second half of 2020. The South Korean ministry expects a 72% savings in cost with the DaaS move. Security standards and DaaS models are currently in development, and pilot tests are scheduled to start in October of this year."

This does make a lot of sense in a two-stage program, switch out the desktop to become thin-clients that connects to the DaaS. Then they can allow end user to connect to a Daas of Windows7, Windows10, Linux, DOS, I mean whatever.

Re: South Korea switching their 3.3M PCs to Linux

#90
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More on TMaxSoft. This software firm builds many 'hard' softwares like OS, DBMS or even MapReduce data processing cluster(like hadoop and spark). One might naturally ask 'why build a wheel while there are plenty already built by open source developers?' and economically aware person might also ask 'how are selling their products while competing against ubuntu, postgresql, spark?' Cloning something from scratch and le…

> Enforcing home grown products to average customers, subsidizing one specific firm to take all domestic market share is how Samsung and Hyundai made its way to top global firms. I can see how this would ensure domestic success, but how does that translate to 'top global firm' status unless the products / features & pricing are significantly superior?

A key idea here is that, to keep this support, the firms were also obliged to export. Even small numbers, at a loss, at first, but they had to have paying customers in America. Firms that couldn't do this were allowed to go bankrupt / get swallowed up.

At least in Korea. In less successful countries, domestic top dogs were simply protected, and were quite happy to keep making cars from the '50s.

An excellent book on this story is "How Asia Works" by Joe Studwell. (On which I'd be interested to hear any opinions from actual Koreans.)

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