It really sounds like a good hobby project for a very rich person.
Indeed. Tax payer money should be used carefully.
Astronomers want public funds for intelligent life search
71–80 of 107 posts
Re: Astronomers want public funds for intelligent life search
#72I used to be a big fan of SETI but I've come around to thinking it's probably a complete waste of time. This will probably get dismissed as "optimistic futurism" but I find the argument compelling that the future of any civilization is a Dyson Swarm for many reasons such as: - Planets are inefficient uses of mass to create living area. IIRC 1% of the mass of Mercury could make enough living area from habitats to hous…
What do you actually think the IR spectrum would look like given that it would still be very close to a star that could potentially already saturate the measurement?
Re: Astronomers want public funds for intelligent life search
#73It always feels to me like so much hubris. Humans are unique on this planet, (we humans have determined it so), by virtue of our so-called intelligence. Not only does this intelligence make us unique on this planet, but the nature of that uniqueness is itself unique across the galaxy and beyond. Intelligence is the thing worthy of discovery. So we go actively looking for other living species which exhibit that precis…
I’m confused. Seems natural for us to look for intelligent signals from space, since unintelligent life is not going to put together the machinery to send interstellar messages.
How do you think we should be searching? It’s fine to say we’re not looking for the right thing, but do you have an alternative?
Re: Astronomers want public funds for intelligent life search
#74The US hasn't even stabilised its environment, healthcare and any number of other important areas of basic human needs. Money for finding extra-terrestrial life would be better spent on earth fixing the mess. Or use it to get us to mars. At least that fits with a "plan B" since humans existing "only on earth" is still a bad idea. Same goes for moon exploration / asteroid mining. Good ideas. Raw resources shouldn't be…
I still suspect that the average dollar expended by the US government has way lower return in expected improvement of human utility than basic scientific research, even with all its imperfections. As long as that’s true, the case for funding that research seems strong to me.
Re: Astronomers want public funds for intelligent life search
#75Earlier quoted context omitted.
Additionally, of all the pure science research we do with public money, the discovery of alien intelligence would have probably the greatest impact on human day-to-day life. Many of the other commenters seem to believe the research would fail. .... something we obviously cannot possibly know without doing the research. The only thing prior SETI research has demonstrated is that no one is purposely beaming a signal ri…
We don't have to be totally alone, we just have to be rare enough that there's no detectable civilization in range at this time. If you multiply the probabilities of complex, intelligent life evolving that happened to be broadcasting signals into space a few decades to centuries ago (depending on how many light years away they are), then it's a reasonable conclusion that what we're looking for is rare. If the closest…
> multiply the probabilities of complex, intelligent life evolving that happened to be broadcasting signals into space a few decades to centuries ago
We have no idea what those probabilities are. Planets where often assumed to be rare until we started looking for them.
Re: Astronomers want public funds for intelligent life search
#76Earlier quoted context omitted.
We don't have to be totally alone, we just have to be rare enough that there's no detectable civilization in range at this time. If you multiply the probabilities of complex, intelligent life evolving that happened to be broadcasting signals into space a few decades to centuries ago (depending on how many light years away they are), then it's a reasonable conclusion that what we're looking for is rare. If the closest…
> multiply the probabilities of complex, intelligent life evolving that happened to be broadcasting signals into space a few decades to centuries ago We have no idea what those probabilities are. Planets where often assumed to be rare until we started looking for them.
They're not going to be 1, so you're multiplying fractions. Start with us being the only radio broadcasting life out of 3.5 billion years of species on this planet, or how long it took to get to multicellular life on a relatively stable world with only occasional mass extinction events that doesn't turn the planet into a Mars or Venus.
Re: Astronomers want public funds for intelligent life search
#77The US hasn't even stabilised its environment, healthcare and any number of other important areas of basic human needs. Money for finding extra-terrestrial life would be better spent on earth fixing the mess. Or use it to get us to mars. At least that fits with a "plan B" since humans existing "only on earth" is still a bad idea. Same goes for moon exploration / asteroid mining. Good ideas. Raw resources shouldn't be…
Why not try all of the above? The mess you mention is unfixable. Mars is very very far away, but worthwhile. The SETI and other research is worthwhile as well. Even if it is a null result, you learn something. R&D itself makes us learn somethings.
If you won't do this stuff until other important problems X & Y are solved, you will never do the interesting things and progress will stall for the species.
Re: Astronomers want public funds for intelligent life search
#78I think some commenters are forgetting how science is done. Just because you are researching X does not mean your only output is X. An investment into SETI is an investment in science and technology. All the arguments on this forum about why we should not allocate funds to SETI can be used in the same manner for why we should not investment in pure mathematics or any other potentially "useless" human endeavor. SETI r…
Fundamental physics or esoteric math are funded for several reasons, one of which is that they engender humbleness in society. These fields are among the most intellectually demanding of all, and by trying to do these difficult things, what we should learn as a society is that we are not done and we don't know it all, and can't do it all. SETI particularly has this extra humbleness benefit, because it reminds us as a…
> Fundamental physics or esoteric math are ... most intellectually demanding of all
Trying to rank the sciences by "hardness" is silly and counterproductive.
Biology gets blown off as "stamp collecting", but it turns out to be frightfully hard in its own way. Look at this "map" of biochemical pathways from Roche: http://biochemical-pathways.com/#/map/1 It's a stupendously complicated dynamical system! This is just part of it, and measuring each arrow requires clever ideas and a heroic amount of work. Imagine how tricky psychology, which deals with the aggregate result of billions of these systems in the body and brain, must be--and the poor sociologists!
Re: Astronomers want public funds for intelligent life search
#79We have already found alien species. Right here on this very same planet: Dinosaurs. We would have never even known about their existence if we had not chanced upon their remains. So it's not just the vast distances of space that separates species from each other, it's also incomprehensible stretches of time. Just from the amount of variables involved and their ranges (the number of planets, the extreme environments…
No, Dinosaurs are not extra-terrestrial aliens, which is what SETI is looking for. And they are not "true" aliens (what's the correct term for this?)
Dinosaurs and Humans share a common ancestor. We evolved from the same origin. We both have DNA. We are literally cousins.
SETI is searching for life that originated from dead matter independently from earthlings. Those extra terrestrial beings may not necessarily have the same basic structure (DNA) as us.
Re: Astronomers want public funds for intelligent life search
#80Earlier quoted context omitted.
Fundamental physics or esoteric math are funded for several reasons, one of which is that they engender humbleness in society. These fields are among the most intellectually demanding of all, and by trying to do these difficult things, what we should learn as a society is that we are not done and we don't know it all, and can't do it all. SETI particularly has this extra humbleness benefit, because it reminds us as a…
> Fundamental physics or esoteric math are ... most intellectually demanding of all Trying to rank the sciences by "hardness" is silly and counterproductive. Biology gets blown off as "stamp collecting", but it turns out to be frightfully hard in its own way. Look at this "map" of biochemical pathways from Roche: http://biochemical-pathways.com/#/map/1 It's a stupendously complicated dynamical system! This is just pa…
Physicists study relatively simple fundamental particles. Biologists study the most complex structures in the known universe. Instead of understanding one particle, you're trying to understand structures of quadrillions of particles in an arrangements of mind boggling complexity. Yes you're right. In some ways biology is much harder than physics.