Ppl can only commute maybe 2 hours max. High speed rail between big cities a few hundred kilometers away may work to replace planes?
More emphasis on trains in Europe to replace flights
111–120 of 207 posts
Re: More emphasis on trains in Europe to replace flights
#112I really don't get why trains can be so expensive and what we need to do to fix that. To an extent, flying is just way too cheap. I mean, I was looking at a roundtrip london/barcelona just last week, it was $25. By train I'm looking at at least 10 hours, likely more like 15, and $300. Both the $25 and the $300 just seem wrong. Flying is way too cheap, but I also don't get how $300 per person is competitive against so…
Well firstly, you don't need to do any work on the terrain that the plane operates on. Meanwhile a train will require contiguous tracks. That might not be a huge hurdle if you need to get between two places with flat land between them, but add water, mountains, forests and whatnot, and that makes it much harder to get a train from one place to another. An airplane just needs two airstrips.
But once a track is built, it doesn’t take much maintenance to keep it running for decades or even a century.
There are places in this world that can’t even manage to repair streets, but have trains operating daily with little trouble. It seems like costs would come down at some point in first world nations, or it’d be worthwhile to subsidize the creation of railways more significantly. I know governments do try to to some extent, but riding trains is expensive almost everywhere. It doesn’t make sense to be cheaper than even roads, which need constant maintenance, intense infrastructure, and cleanup.
Re: More emphasis on trains in Europe to replace flights
#113I am a big fan of rail travel within Europe but I have to admit that at times it feels like playing on hard mode. I live in Switzerland now and travel to London somewhat often. Here's a list of things that have sucked by train:
* French rail strikes this winter caused:
a) my Zurich to London TGV to be cut short (it started from a later station), 3 days before departure b) my connecting Eurostar to be cancelled, so I had to no-show the TGV and cancel the Eurostar to fly c) my return Eurostar was not cancelled, but d) my TGV was, 4 days before travelling, so again I had to cancel the Eurostar and the TGV and fly e) I filed claims for the disrupted/cancelled trains. Eurostar refunded me immediately but I waited 7 weeks for a reply from SNCF before calling them a few times to get my refund
Sure, strikes affect other modes of transport but the hassle here was the amount of coordination I had to do to fix my travel.
* I booked a Zurich -> London roundtrip on oui.sncf but later needed to change my return. I called SNCF because the site wouldn't let me change the ticket online. SNCF told me they couldn't change my Eurostar -- I had to call Eurostar for that, then call SNCF again to change the TGV. They didn't know what would happen to the fare. I gave up and bought new single returns. Next time I'll by Eurostar tickets from Eurostar and TGV from SNCF.
* Changing trains in Paris is a nuisance. It's not hard (2 stops on the RER) but it adds significant extra time, particularly on Paris -> London where there is passport control. I've taken bikes from the UK to France a lot and hauling them on the RER sucks.
* It's often pricier, at least for Eurostar. The TGV prices are often cheap (from €29 Zurich->Paris) but Eurostar gets expensive fast unless you book way in advance.
Travel within Switzerland and the surrounding countries is great but in general making long trips with connections between systems is harder and problems have greater consequences. There's no form of alliance or easy rebooking or anything like that -- a lot of problem solving is down to you.
But! When it works travel by train is relaxing, enjoyable (for me), can be more convenient (less bag hassle, train stations generally central), not to mention less bad for the environment.
Re: More emphasis on trains in Europe to replace flights
#114I really don't get why trains can be so expensive and what we need to do to fix that. To an extent, flying is just way too cheap. I mean, I was looking at a roundtrip london/barcelona just last week, it was $25. By train I'm looking at at least 10 hours, likely more like 15, and $300. Both the $25 and the $300 just seem wrong. Flying is way too cheap, but I also don't get how $300 per person is competitive against so…
I’ll add to all the other comments good explainations that as trains use tracks, it all depends on where are all the other trains and when.
So fast trains (at least in France that you should have cross to go to Barcelona) must have very specific time tables and get along with local trains, when airplanes don’t and can go straight.
It adds constraint.
(Ok, I know planes have routes too, but it’s much easyier to do timetables)
Re: More emphasis on trains in Europe to replace flights
#115This [0] 13 year old article seems relevant to the discussion. Night trains should get much more love from Europe!
[0] https://solar.lowtechmagazine.com/2007/04/High-speed-trains-...
Re: More emphasis on trains in Europe to replace flights
#116I really don't get why trains can be so expensive and what we need to do to fix that. To an extent, flying is just way too cheap. I mean, I was looking at a roundtrip london/barcelona just last week, it was $25. By train I'm looking at at least 10 hours, likely more like 15, and $300. Both the $25 and the $300 just seem wrong. Flying is way too cheap, but I also don't get how $300 per person is competitive against so…
> I really don't get why trains can be so expensive and what we need to do to fix that.
I recently watched https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwjwePe-HmA which covered much of the cost breakdowns - especially for American passenger rail. TL;DR:
* Labor is expensive. That 10 hour train ride is 10 hours you're paying every employee on the train. The faster speed of an equivalent plane ride means you're not paying pilots for as long, or allows them to make more trips.
* Rail is expensive. You have to buy the land between point A and point B. You have to build the rails, bridges, crossing guards, with lots of labor to build and maintain it all, with plenty of regulatory burdens to work through (ecological, safety, eminent domain, ...). The sky between airports, on the other hand, is free.
I've seen some suggestions that the sweet spot for trains is in medium length routes ("too far to drive, too near to fly"), with short haul routes being dominated by road vehicles (cars, taxis, buses) and long haul routes being dominated by airplanes (fast, don't need to buy/lease/maintain rails across thousands of miles)
Re: More emphasis on trains in Europe to replace flights
#117I really don't get why trains can be so expensive and what we need to do to fix that. To an extent, flying is just way too cheap. I mean, I was looking at a roundtrip london/barcelona just last week, it was $25. By train I'm looking at at least 10 hours, likely more like 15, and $300. Both the $25 and the $300 just seem wrong. Flying is way too cheap, but I also don't get how $300 per person is competitive against so…
Because politics. Trains are very national in the EU and even after this many years that still gets in the way of effective train based transportation. Plus heavy rail is flat out expensive to put down and maintain and the cars are and engines themselves all contribute the initial cost of establishing a line as well as maintenance. Then the kicker compared to airline travel, you cannot simply reroute a train. It is stuck to its rail line, as in you cannot simply move a train to service a route that needs it now.
You could tax the airline industry into the ground but it will not fix the reality that trains simply are not flexible, similar to how light rail in cities is not ideal for the majority of cities that employ it; for many city transportation systems light rail eats away a disproportionate amount of the budget impacting bus availability as well - it is a money pit
A previous financial times article [0] explains some of the political problems but far too many still do not understand the logistical side of rail lines.
[0]https://www.ft.com/content/e77dc48e-7894-11e8-8e67-1e1a0846c...
Re: More emphasis on trains in Europe to replace flights
#118Earlier quoted context omitted.
Aviation only makes up about 2% of total global C02 emissions. Because the majority of humanity has never flown at all. What fraction of your CO2 emissions came from flying last year?
Fair point, though I don't see any major problem even if air travel was to increase by 2 or 3 times, so long as we make significant reductions in other areas. I took 6 flights (~3,000km each). I would start with the immediate implementation of a tax (10%?, 20%?) on all new ICE vehicle sales. Revenue from this tax would be used to subsidize the purchase of EVs.
At approximately 1000 kg COeq per 3000 km trip[1]. Your budget for the whole year was 2300 kg.
Re: More emphasis on trains in Europe to replace flights
#119Earlier quoted context omitted.
It is slow when it's directly competing with planes.
Not so much when the train leaves direct from the city centre and you can arrive 10 mins before your departure.
1h 30min + whatever time I spend at the airport vs. 12 hours + 10 minutes at the train station. That's a pretty hard sell.
Re: More emphasis on trains in Europe to replace flights
#120I really don't get why trains can be so expensive and what we need to do to fix that. To an extent, flying is just way too cheap. I mean, I was looking at a roundtrip london/barcelona just last week, it was $25. By train I'm looking at at least 10 hours, likely more like 15, and $300. Both the $25 and the $300 just seem wrong. Flying is way too cheap, but I also don't get how $300 per person is competitive against so…
I flew from Amsterdam to Dublin for €19. I then took the train from Dublin to Cork for ... €60. The distance from Amsterdam to Dublin is about 750km, three times as long as Dublin-Cork (you can also take the bus for €15 or some such, but last time I did that I got rather carsick, so I figured I'd take the train, not knowing how expensive it was!)
You can go from one side of The Netherlands from the other for about €20 on the train and you can have unlimited train travel for €350 a month (and considerably less for a given route).