Live data from Hacker News

Self-driving cars turned out to be harder than expected

vox.com

161–170 of 287 posts

Re: Self-driving cars turned out to be harder than expected

#161
post #33

Alternate headline: Some people overstated how simple this problem was because they didn't know what they were talking about, could promote themselves as experts, could get funding for a self-driving startup or some combination of the above. I guess that isn't as pithy but it's closer to the truth. When it became clear that Uber's strategy (under Kalanick anyway) was premised on replacing drivers with AIs before the…

I always thought Uber’s strategy was to get large enough for the VC and PE guys to be able to offload the whole pile of steaming garbage onto the index funds.

Re: Self-driving cars turned out to be harder than expected

#162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Once a driver knows the car next to them isn't driven by a person it changes their behaviour. If the car next to me isn't driven by a person, but is bristling with high resolution cameras that will immediately upload footage of my face to the authorities if I collide with it, I would indeed change my behavior.

I can see you've never tried to actually get charges brought against someone using dashcam footage...

I wear a helmet cam, and yes, as an individual it's basically impossible to get traction, even when you have a clear plate and face shot. But when the self-driving car company has thousands or millions of these incidents on record, they'll quickly find themselves wielding enormous power.

They'll be able to correlate across time and space, similar to how phones running Google Maps are reporting their position and velocity to create up to the minute traffic overlays. They'll be able to approach politicians and police forces with a message like "hey, want to get serious about safety? These are the top one hundred drivers in your area who need to be taken off the road now— click through to our portal to find dozens and dozens of videos of each one speeding, weaving, failing to yield, running stop signs, etc."

Each individual incident may be hard to prosecute, but when you have all of them in a bundle, a few a week for months at a time, it'll become impossible not to act on it. When crashes happen, they'll be able to shame the jurisdiction after the fact by publishing dumps of the incidents leading up to it that were not acted on.

Re: Self-driving cars turned out to be harder than expected

#163

I've been beating this drum for years (but I'm a nobody, so it's like pissing in the wind): 1. Anything less than 100% FULL automation is MORE dangerous than manual driving, because the "driver" will almost certainly lack any situational awareness. When the need for manual intervention happen, it will be at the moments where you need maximum awareness and split second reflexes. 2. There are SO many edge cases and nev…

To your first point, I'm not convinced that's true. People augment their lives in lots of ways that don't seem to reduce safety. A few examples off the top of my head: simple "dumb" cruise control hasn't lead to more accidents. Parachutes have auto-deploy features if the cord isn't pulled by a certain height. Scuba divers use dive computers that basically eliminate the need to learn dive tables (and beep at you when you're doing something dumb). Apparently passenger jets are highly automated (I'm out of my depth on that one). These are all on the spectrum towards automation and have only been helpful. Do you think the problem occurs as you approach 100%? Like an uncanny valley in the 99 to 99.99% range?

Re: Self-driving cars turned out to be harder than expected

#164

You have to wonder, when you see these stories, whether the engineers in charge of these programs spent much time driving around, trying to see the road like an AI might. In my experience, driving in the city, it's rare that I can go more than a few miles before some exception comes up that requires human judgment. Here's a few of the things I saw just last week: * Car double parked. Do I cross the center line to go…

For a mundane situation that's surprisingly difficult: toll booths.

The highway goes from N lanes to N5 (or more!) lanes and then back into N lanes, usually with the lane markings being completely absent in the process. You have to pick a lane to get into, with your choice being potentially impacted by such things as "are you a truck?", "exact change only", or "I have an EZ-Pass", not to mention the potential for some lanes to be outright closed. The signage is likely to be somewhat unique and potentially counterintuitive to normal meanings--the lane under the big yellow light is the kind of lane I usually want to take, especially since it's usually higher speed than the lane under the big green light. Drivers are going to be more erratic than usual ("oops, I don't have EZ-pass" SWERVE*). And they usually occur smack-dab in the middle of limited-access highways where people might want to use self-driving cars.

Re: Self-driving cars turned out to be harder than expected

#165
It's only the end of a wave. 50s saw some ideas, 80s a few more, this one was a massive push [0], I honestly don't think the road to SDV is long and windy. It's just a natural bubble bursting backpush for now.

[0] I'm not even a fan of the idea anymore btw, just trying to assess the technical hurdles. Sensors have become numerous and cheaper, compute power is immense. Investment won't be higher to make new steps in 20-30 years.

Re: Self-driving cars turned out to be harder than expected

#166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being excessively cautious makes you an unpredictable driver as well. Unpredictability is the antithesis of safe driving.

In my experience, I have never been surprised by overly cautious drivers, only drivers who have an excess of confidence. How do you define 'excess caution'?

For the most part I don't really disagree with you, but there are ways drivers could behave unpredictably out of what might be called an excess of caution. For example, my wife just yesterday told me about something that happened to her that day. She was waiting to turn right from a side street, behind another car also turning right. The first car started their turn, she pulled up, checked that there was ample room, and so started to turn in behind them. Then the car in front slammed on their brakes, stopping partway into the lane. It seems they did this because there was a car approaching in the distance on the main street.

The thing is, that car was far enough away that both cars could have easily turned in front with room to spare. My wife had seen it before starting her turn, and realized there was plenty of time. In fact, after a few seconds, the driver in front of my wife realized just how much time they had, and finally made the turn, still before this other car arrived. Because my wife is an attentive driver this wasn't a problem, but you could certainly see a driver in her position starting to make the turn while looking to the left, and rear-ending the car that suddenly stops for no apparent reason. Of course they would be at fault for doing so, but the first driver's excess of caution, if you want to call it that, would also be a contributing factor.

Re: Self-driving cars turned out to be harder than expected

#167
post #35

You have to wonder, when you see these stories, whether the engineers in charge of these programs spent much time driving around, trying to see the road like an AI might. In my experience, driving in the city, it's rare that I can go more than a few miles before some exception comes up that requires human judgment. Here's a few of the things I saw just last week: * Car double parked. Do I cross the center line to go…

IMHO cars are for getting between cities, or between places in non-cities; within a city, the economical long-term solution is to just replace the roads (save for cargo corridors) with some kind of pod rail network, i.e. self-driving four-seater trolleys. The exceptions become far fewer if there's nothing on the "road" but other rail-bound vehicles. In such a future, if you lived in a city but owned your own real car…

> just replace the roads (save for cargo corridors) with some kind of pod rail network, i.e. self-driving four-seater trolleys.

So Personal Rapid Transit? This idea has been tried before, and has never lived up to expectations.

Re: Self-driving cars turned out to be harder than expected

#168
post #11

Disclaimer up front: I work for GM, I don't work on SDC. As I see it, self-driving is a cursed[0][1] problem. If you could choose a different problem space, or to ignore some complications, self-driving would merely be very hard. But the requirement to handle ANY external behavior with ANY external conditions and navigate to ANY destination, while also maintaining safety is impossible* satisfy. One cursed corner of t…

Waymo and Tesla have both solved the problem, in different ways, by gating the feature.

Why would they need to force Level 5? They can operate with the promise of L5 in the future, until the moment the statistics show it’s safe to turn it on.

Between now and then they can provide a steadily increasing supply of value to their customers. And steadily ramp the data they have to improve the system.

I have no idea if it will be 2 years or 10 years or 100 years before they can turn on Level 5 without a geofence.... but what difference does that number make? It’s academic. It’s not an existential question for either company’s self driving value prop.

And consider that different jurisdictions will set different dates. All it takes is one government to OK L5 in some area, and Tesla’s ass is covered. And every jurisdiction that signs on will put more pressure on other jurisdictions to follow suit.

To me, that’s the brilliance of Tesla’s strategy. They have decoupled their forcing functions from the L4/L5 legislative question. Governments can drag their feet as long as they want but it won’t hurt Tesla’s ability to sell the tech or collect the data they need to improve the tech. They are already selling autonomy features, and they can make that value prop incrementally better year over year for as long as it takes.

Re: Self-driving cars turned out to be harder than expected

#169

It amazes me how Tesla can continue to just outright lie in their sales material about this. Right now you can purchase a brand new Model S with a "full self driving" package, even though no such thing exists, nor is there any timeline at all to when it will (if ever). Autopilot as it stands is nothing more than an advanced driver assist system with blindspot monitoring and automatic lane changing. Not even close to…

sef driving cars... by 2020... on Mars
Post reply on HN