Live data from Hacker News

Self-driving cars turned out to be harder than expected

vox.com

41–50 of 287 posts

Re: Self-driving cars turned out to be harder than expected

#41
It still feels kind of like we're in the "Apple Newton" phase of self driving with the iphone in the indeterminate future.

One day we'll look back and say "aww, they tried so hard with the limited tech they had and got so close but what they needed to make it good just didn't exist yet".

Re: Self-driving cars turned out to be harder than expected

#42
I think car companies try to rely way too much on machine learning. You get some promising results fast, but it is all inside a black box, both verifying the correctness and changing what is wrong are almost impossible jobs.

Maybe machine learning can be used to tell the difference between a dog and a plastic bag, but you'll need some hard code to describe how to react to either.

Re: Self-driving cars turned out to be harder than expected

#44
post #33

Alternate headline: Some people overstated how simple this problem was because they didn't know what they were talking about, could promote themselves as experts, could get funding for a self-driving startup or some combination of the above. I guess that isn't as pithy but it's closer to the truth. When it became clear that Uber's strategy (under Kalanick anyway) was premised on replacing drivers with AIs before the…

> How do you program around humans changing their behaviour to take advantage of there being no driver in your car?

The AI car will have sufficient cameras to record your actions and report them directly to your insurance company if not the police.

This will be MORE effective at deterring stupid driving, not less.

Re: Self-driving cars turned out to be harder than expected

#45
post #11

Disclaimer up front: I work for GM, I don't work on SDC. As I see it, self-driving is a cursed[0][1] problem. If you could choose a different problem space, or to ignore some complications, self-driving would merely be very hard. But the requirement to handle ANY external behavior with ANY external conditions and navigate to ANY destination, while also maintaining safety is impossible* satisfy. One cursed corner of t…

This is spot on. The Always/Never is well articulated, it is exactly why I got rid of a vehicle with auto braking. It did it twice when it wasn't supposed to and that was more dangerous than if it had never triggered at all. And yet, in an actual imminent crash it would have probably responded a lot quicker than I ever could. Still, I'm not going to be scared twice in a month by my car doing stuff 'on its own' to my possible detriment.

Re: Self-driving cars turned out to be harder than expected

#46
It's one of the biggest engineering problems in the last 10 years due to sensory input issues, dealing with the unexpected behavior of outside influences and you have to have the mechanical and software components that the first two components give the commands to, and can then faithfully execute them https://semiengineering.com/challenges-to-building-autonomou... and https://semiengineering.com/more-data-more-problems-in-autom...

Re: Self-driving cars turned out to be harder than expected

#47
I've been beating this drum for years (but I'm a nobody, so it's like pissing in the wind):

1. Anything less than 100% FULL automation is MORE dangerous than manual driving, because the "driver" will almost certainly lack any situational awareness. When the need for manual intervention happen, it will be at the moments where you need maximum awareness and split second reflexes.

2. There are SO many edge cases and never-seen-before situations that happen when driving "at scale" that the automation features will fail unexpectedly and in strange ways.

3. G and Cruise might be exceptions, but most of the companies in this space are cowboys with reckless disregard for public safety and terrible "iterate quickly" coding practices.

4. At some point there will be an accident that kills a photogenic "middle America" person or people and at that point the government will crush this industry with regulation, with the financial backing of automakers, UAW, and other people who benefit from the status quo.

The only way 100% fully self driving cars will ever happen is for the infrastructure itself to be built to accommodate them. Mixing regular cars, parking, trucks, bicycles, scooters, pedestrians, dog walkers, hoverboards, etc all together on the same roads ensures that the problem is unsolvable.

Re: Self-driving cars turned out to be harder than expected

#48
post #33

Alternate headline: Some people overstated how simple this problem was because they didn't know what they were talking about, could promote themselves as experts, could get funding for a self-driving startup or some combination of the above. I guess that isn't as pithy but it's closer to the truth. When it became clear that Uber's strategy (under Kalanick anyway) was premised on replacing drivers with AIs before the…

That is an interesting point. I can see that human drivers will be much more willing to drive aggressively (i.e. play chicken) if they know the other driver(s) are AI and will take evasive action.

For example, I avoid doing things on the road that an inattentive other driver might be slow to react to and hit me, such as suddenly cutting across 3 lanes of traffic.

Re: Self-driving cars turned out to be harder than expected

#49
post #15

I am a traffic engineer and one of the things that I do regularly is write 10 year traffic plans for small to medium sized cities, think 60,000 people max. When a lot of the self driving hype was really kicking off, I was told to make sure to incorporate them into the plans. This mostly consisted of a few sentences about self driving and that was it. When modeling future traffic growth, the client would always say, "…

Yeah just collision detection and lane guidance are already helpful in modern cars. After driving in snow in Colorado I have to wonder how self driving cars perform under such conditions. I couldn't make out where the lines are and no one really does. A four lane road can easily become a two lane road under such conditions, as people cut a worn path through the snow. I really think self driving could improve public t…

A lot of people are incredibad at driving in snow. I would not be surprised at all if self driving cars vastly reduce the accidents attributable to snow on the road. Some of that might be due to the car deciding something is too dangerous to attempt, and frankly that seems fine to me. If your problem is “the car can’t handle x condition”, there’s really no issue so long as that’s because the car refuses to try, rather than trying and failing with non trivial probability

Re: Self-driving cars turned out to be harder than expected

#50
post #28

It’s really just a matter of time. Those that started out optimistic (when it was hyped) but are now saying that they don’t see self driving cars can do the complex situations we humans supposedly can should have some patience. As the tech improves, and more data is used to train models, it’ll surely surpass humans in driving ability.

If only it were that simple.
Post reply on HN