Why do incompetent managers get promoted? • Hacker News Board

Re: Why do incompetent managers get promoted?

#31

Post by mooreds » Fri, Feb 14, 2020, 4:27 PM UTC

eppp wrote: post #24

snegu wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm in the exact same boat as you. I'm currently interviewing for individual contributor roles and trying to accept the fact that I'm going to have to take a pay cut. I think it will be worth it, though, to feel like I'm doing something worthwhile again.

I dont think I understood or appreciated how unpleasant being a manager is. I like working and doing actual work. What does "incompetent" even mean. Dealing with personnel issues or actually doing valuable work? You get pulled away from doing things of value by having to deal with the interpersonal things that you don't want to do. But you have to do them because people are people. As a result, some of those same peo…

I remember talking about this with a business coach when I first managed folks. She said it was an entirely new discipline than what I did before as an IC (software developer), and that I should treat it as such.

No one is born a good manager, the same way no one is born a good software engineer. Ya gotta study.

But it isn't permanent. See also:

https://charity.wtf/2019/01/04/engineering-management-the-pe...

Re: Why do incompetent managers get promoted?

#32

Post by dkdk8283 » Fri, Feb 14, 2020, 4:30 PM UTC

snegu wrote: post #12

eppp wrote: post #6

How many times do people who are good at their jobs get promoted just because there isnt anywhere else to go? You cant make any more money at the level you are without switching companies so you get stuck going into management. I got promoted to being a manager of a small group just because there wasn't anyone else to do it and I am completely incompetent as a manager of people. I don't enjoy it and didn't ask for it…

I'm in the exact same boat as you. I'm currently interviewing for individual contributor roles and trying to accept the fact that I'm going to have to take a pay cut. I think it will be worth it, though, to feel like I'm doing something worthwhile again.

Where I work ICs make a lot more than mid level managers. Directors and above, however, have substantial benefits not only limited to salary.

Re: Why do incompetent managers get promoted?

#33

Post by Shivetya » Fri, Feb 14, 2020, 4:33 PM UTC

is can far easier to promote either up or across rather than push them out as many are loathe to work with HR to push out incompetent or under performing.

then of course as others have mentioned, having no where else to promote someone other than to manager. we used to joke where I am about 15 year longevity reward was the manager title

Re: Why do incompetent managers get promoted?

#34

Post by linuxftw » Fri, Feb 14, 2020, 4:34 PM UTC

mdorazio wrote: post #10

I don’t agree with anything in this article. Incompetent managers get promoted because the things they are competent at are not the things their employees want them to be competent at. There is a dichotomy between traits that get people promoted at large companies and traits that make a good manager from the perspective of subordinates. Those traits only sometimes overlap. Thus the whole argument is predicated on a f…

> choosing the right (high-visibility) things to work on

This applies to non-manager types too. Buzz words pay the bills. Always be in the growth sector, not the pay the bills sector.

Re: Why do incompetent managers get promoted?

#35

Post by snegu » Fri, Feb 14, 2020, 4:35 PM UTC

eppp wrote: post #24

snegu wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm in the exact same boat as you. I'm currently interviewing for individual contributor roles and trying to accept the fact that I'm going to have to take a pay cut. I think it will be worth it, though, to feel like I'm doing something worthwhile again.

I dont think I understood or appreciated how unpleasant being a manager is. I like working and doing actual work. What does "incompetent" even mean. Dealing with personnel issues or actually doing valuable work? You get pulled away from doing things of value by having to deal with the interpersonal things that you don't want to do. But you have to do them because people are people. As a result, some of those same peo…

Yeah, most days I am therapist/coach/mom, and while I think I'm actually pretty decent at it, it's not what I want to be doing. It's emotionally exhausting and rarely rewarding.

Re: Why do incompetent managers get promoted?

#36

Post by nullc » Fri, Feb 14, 2020, 4:36 PM UTC

I wonder how many people who reference "The Peter Principle" have actually read it?

It's short-- maybe 100 pages long-- and IMO not particularly good. It's essentially just a pile of brief vignettes about incompetent people being promoted, many of which feel like they were largely made up for the book. "There once was a guy named bob. He was bad at his job and got promoted. So there." ---- it is not quite that bad but it is also not obviously much better. Analysis is mostly limited to just repeating the headline thesis in a number of different ways.

I suppose it is a fine read if you were already convinced that its premise was true and just want the thrill of having your preconceived notions confirmed by a written page-- which I assume explains its commercial success. If you come into it with any doubts about the premise they will not be dispelled.

Perhaps you could say that by being constantly referenced in any related discussion, "The Peter Principle" by being unchallenging and agreeable while saying little of substance has fittingly risen to the level of its incompetence.

Having lived my entire life in a world this book existed in, perhaps I just don't Get It... maybe there was a time where this idea had to be repeated a dozen times before people would accept that it was a thing that happens, even sometimes. If so, then I suppose it served its purpose. I don't, however, think it has much to offer the reader now.

Re: Why do incompetent managers get promoted?

#37

Post by usrusr » Fri, Feb 14, 2020, 4:38 PM UTC

eppp wrote: post #6

How many times do people who are good at their jobs get promoted just because there isnt anywhere else to go? You cant make any more money at the level you are without switching companies so you get stuck going into management. I got promoted to being a manager of a small group just because there wasn't anyone else to do it and I am completely incompetent as a manager of people. I don't enjoy it and didn't ask for it…

> I got promoted to being a manager of a small group just because there wasn't anyone else to do it and I am completely incompetent as a manager of people.

I could also easily see someone in that situation, and fully aware of it, accept the promotion purely to avoid getting managed by whoever would be the next in line.

Re: Why do incompetent managers get promoted?

#38

Post by ieRei6ae » Fri, Feb 14, 2020, 4:44 PM UTC

eppp wrote: post #6

How many times do people who are good at their jobs get promoted just because there isnt anywhere else to go? You cant make any more money at the level you are without switching companies so you get stuck going into management. I got promoted to being a manager of a small group just because there wasn't anyone else to do it and I am completely incompetent as a manager of people. I don't enjoy it and didn't ask for it…

> How many times do people who are good at their jobs get promoted just because there isnt anywhere else to go?

Sometimes, yes. I also saw terrible developers being promoted into management to get them out of the technical work.

Re: Why do incompetent managers get promoted?

#39

Post by ginko » Fri, Feb 14, 2020, 4:45 PM UTC

TuringNYC wrote: post #19

eppp wrote: post #6

How many times do people who are good at their jobs get promoted just because there isnt anywhere else to go? You cant make any more money at the level you are without switching companies so you get stuck going into management. I got promoted to being a manager of a small group just because there wasn't anyone else to do it and I am completely incompetent as a manager of people. I don't enjoy it and didn't ask for it…

It is even worse. For companies without SME tracks, SMEs find themselves getting almost no raises or comp despite contributing to more and more revenue and/or important/complex work. Then you see stupid things happen, like they find need for and hire 2 or 3 people just so they can justify a 5% raise. Then they find need for and hire more people to justify another 10% raise. Suddenly you have a company with many FTEs…

What does SME, FTE and IC mean?

Re: Why do incompetent managers get promoted?

#40

Post by usrusr » Fri, Feb 14, 2020, 4:45 PM UTC

nullc wrote: post #36

I wonder how many people who reference "The Peter Principle" have actually read it? It's short-- maybe 100 pages long-- and IMO not particularly good. It's essentially just a pile of brief vignettes about incompetent people being promoted, many of which feel like they were largely made up for the book. "There once was a guy named bob. He was bad at his job and got promoted. So there." ---- it is not quite that bad bu…

Read it but never made it to the end. It's an essay at most, artificially inflated to book length just to get a sellable format. I do think that it's an important insight into the inner workings of organisations, but it's far from the only truth in the room.