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The U.S. is charging Huawei with racketeering

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Re: The U.S. is charging Huawei with racketeering

#131

Post by filoleg »

allovernow wrote: post #111
anonobviosly wrote: post #27

My previous employer and my current one (both Fortune-50 tech companies) each had quiet policies that prospective job candidates who had Huawei on their resume needed extra clearing before they could even interview. Reading through the indictment makes the policies seem less paranoid or perhaps even not paranoid enough.

[deleted]

While I hear your reasoning, and parts of it make total sense, it is explicitly illegal to discriminate against someone due to their citizenship (yes, citizenship as well, not just national origin or anything like that) during the recruitment process (exceptions apply, i.e., if they are in the US illegally or if the position requires some sort of security clearance).

Imo the only way it would work is if there was a separate law passed that addresses hiring workers who have Chinese citizenship specifically (with no US citizenship at the same time, obviously, as dual nationals are a thing), but that would never happen unless the situation escalated dramatically way beyond what it is now.

Re: The U.S. is charging Huawei with racketeering

#132

Post by tatrajim »

virtue3 wrote: post #51
AsyncAwait wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's hard to feel too sorry for these companies. It's not exactly a secret that this is how China operates You mean every developing nation? Just look at U.S. industrial espionage in Europe during the 18th-19th century when it was developing. Pretending this is somehow how China specifically operates is disingenuous.

No no no, those are American HEROES sir. https://www.history.com/news/industrial-revolution-spies-eur... /s But very good point. I feel like military tech is another issue entirely tho. And concerns me with what I'm perceiving as an arms race with carriers and fighter jets over I presume China's ability to project power within their naval territory .

Note how all comments citing US industrial espionage fail to mention that the young U.S. was at war with Great Britain from 1776-83 and again in 1812 when the Brits burned much of Washington, D.C. is the contemporary parallel that China is now asserting they are at war with the U.S. and therefore can appropriate technology at will?

Re: The U.S. is charging Huawei with racketeering

#133

Post by iamnothere »

jorblumesea wrote: post #95
mdorazio wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, I'm not sure how TPP was actually supposed to accomplish what you're saying. As far as I know, TPP didn't restrict participants from trading with China, and it's not clear to me what would have economically discouraged them from doing so. Maybe I'm wrong - I genuinely want to know.

The text of the TPP basically ensured a "special trade relationship" between signers that outside, non-singers, would not be able to compete with. I would re-read the text of the TPP and see for yourself. It was basically a group trade agreement that guaranteed favorable exchanges. It's not that technically, they wouldn't be able to trade with China, but practically speaking, there was little chance.

"Favorable" for multinationals in that ISDS claims would allow companies to circumvent regulations and target economically vulnerable areas: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/isds-lawsuit-financing-tpp_n_...

It was also hostile towards government efforts to require source access, which interferes with the right to repair: https://www.fsf.org/blogs/licensing/time-to-act-on-tpp-is-no...

The TPP was a handout to multinationals and an attack on workers across the US and Pacific. It's a good thing that it didn't come to fruition.

Re: The U.S. is charging Huawei with racketeering

#134

Post by tatrajim »

dmoy wrote: post #121
ricw wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not just China that does this. This is a proven path for developing economies, that still have a labor price advantage. It’s the reason “Made in Germany” exists as a label, forced by the brits to mark “inferior goods” that turned out to be cheaper and better. Just like China now...

US theft of UK IP back in the day (early 19th century textiles especially) was a big deal.

Why not mention the rest of the story: that the U,S. and Great Britain engaged at the time in two bitter wars? Are you claiming that China is justified is stealing U.S. IP because the two nations are at war currently?

Re: The U.S. is charging Huawei with racketeering

#135

Post by skissane »

JPKab wrote: post #105
tpudlik wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see this as a win-win, too, but in a different way. Early on, the US companies cut their costs: good for them, and likely their customers. In the long term, China developed the expertise needed to contribute to the development of advanced technologies: good for them, and for humanity's aggregate progress. There's a lot of acrimony over how to divide the surplus, but this shouldn't overshadow the technological and e…

I love the fact that the PEOPLE of China have been able to benefit economically from this. However, less than 9% of China's population are members of the CCP. The other 91% of China's people are locked out of any form of government representation. This is a recipe for tyranny, and the elites of the CCP have oppressed the good citizens of China by developing tech for suppression of speech, identification and targeting…

> However, less than 9% of China's population are members of the CCP. The other 91% of China's people are locked out of any form of government representation.

I wonder, of the 91% who aren’t party members, what percentage are non-members because they don’t want to join the party, versus what percentage wouldn’t be allowed to join even if they wanted to?

Re: The U.S. is charging Huawei with racketeering

#136

Post by nl »

mdorazio wrote: post #124
nl wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The TPP was absolutely designed to be a China containment strategy. The idea was to reduce trade barriers within the Pacific region, which would make trade there cheaper and hence more attractive vs China. Specifically, lower wage countries (Malaysia, Vietnam, Mexico) would have been more attractive as outsourcing locations compared to China, and in return good and services from high wage countries would have been ch…

Right, but you need to show that knocking down tariffs like the Vietnam one would actually directly result in more non-Chinese trade. I can pretty much guarantee that even without the 20% tariff, US imports would still be far more expensive than Chinese equivalents. Do you have any economic analysis articles or papers you can point me to that model the expected impacts based on actual market prices and labor costs?

Sure. Here's one on a potential free trade agreement between the US and Malaysia[1] (which is another TPP nation) that calculates direct changes:

As shown, following a free trade, the Malaysia’s export to the USA would increase by USD 30984 million or 7 percent and the US export to Malaysia would increase by USD 16051 million(22 percent). The substantial increase in the volume of export between two countries is due to removal of trade barriers. The higher increase in the US export to Malaysia relative to the Malaysia export to the US is because Malaysia currently has a higher tariff than the US.

Worth noting that it's absolutely unclear if it would have worked, but how TPP was supposed to be a China containment strategy is clear (which was your original question).

[1] http://www2.southeastern.edu/orgs/econjournal/index_files/JI...

Re: The U.S. is charging Huawei with racketeering

#137

Post by jhallenworld »

gok wrote: post #116
jhallenworld wrote: post #103

Huawei clearly is on parity with western technology. The evidence is here: https://www.eetasia.com/news/article/Integrated-5G-Chips-Unv... And in particular, with its 5G modem: http://www.hisilicon.com/en/Products/ProductList/Balong Some news about this: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-09-09/huawei-an... And also for the base stations: https://www.fiercewireless.com/wireless/huawei-s-5g-ran-port...

The evidence is a Huawei product announcement?

This was a convenient find on the web.. better is that their equipment (for base stations anyway) has been through equipment evaluations.

Re: The U.S. is charging Huawei with racketeering

#138

Post by duckmysick »

throwawei wrote: post #87

Using a throwaway to share our $0.02 relating to this. AMA I guess. We're a US-based startup that does about $100-200k in business annually with Futurewei (Huawei's R&D subsidiary). I've never dealt with Huawei proper. I can say they're genuinely investing in R&D, and trying to build a product unlike anything being offered right now. We're working with tech that's floating around the academic conferences, but no one…

How did the two of you get connected with each other?

Re: The U.S. is charging Huawei with racketeering

#139

Post by resters »

Ironically, this is an attempt by the Trump administration to steal IP from China. US firms are behind in 5G because they have sat on the sidelines while Huawei engineered the chipsets.

It's tremendously ironic that these charges will likely allow US firms to steal money and/or IP from Huawei through what is for all intents and purposes the Trump administration's fiat.

Worse yet, as has been the pattern with the Trump administration so far, many aspects of the economy that were relatively stable and allowed planning and investment have been destroyed, like when a child throws a tantrum and upsets a board game sending the pieces onto the floor. Many international agreements, standards, and trade and diplomatic relationships have been set back decades by the administration.

Note that the major claims have all been false so far:

- The daughter (a journalist) of the Huawei CEO was harrassed and detained without cause, in what was essentially a kidnapping for ransom/extortion. How did the American people not feel outrage when Trump did this?

- There have been repeated accusations of backdoors into 5G hardware, but yet no example of a device that has been hacked by the US or any private sector researchers.

- US officials have (quite inappropriately) tried to foment xenophobia and hatred of Chinese immigrants in the US. This combined with Trump's xenophobic comments show the US's hand quite clearly. China is now a rival and no dirty tactics are off limits.

As an American, I am so deeply embarrassed by all of this.

Re: The U.S. is charging Huawei with racketeering

#140

Post by nine_k »

echelon wrote: post #107
tpudlik wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see this as a win-win, too, but in a different way. Early on, the US companies cut their costs: good for them, and likely their customers. In the long term, China developed the expertise needed to contribute to the development of advanced technologies: good for them, and for humanity's aggregate progress. There's a lot of acrimony over how to divide the surplus, but this shouldn't overshadow the technological and e…

> good for them, and for humanity's aggregate progress. I don't think social credit and proof that democracy isn't necessary for profit is good for humanity's progress.

Well, yes, that's what the whole cyberpunk genre has been warning us about for last 30 years. That future has come, though fortunately it's not evenly distributed, at least yet.
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