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Burnoutindex.org

burnoutindex.org

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Re: Burnoutindex.org

#91

Post by sz4kerto »

ghostbrainalpha wrote: post #71
sz4kerto wrote: post #45

Be really careful with these surveys. The problems of these, among other things: - mixing up burnout risk with burnout - mixing up burnout with physical or mental fatigue - not serving any purpose (i.e. not providing good directions) Burnout is primarily a negative change in perception, and it's a spectrum, obviously. You get burned out when your perception of the same situation gets progressively worse. This can be…

Wait.... "apathy" is rare? I thought that is the step where most of us have been hanging out. I have been waiting for the "real burnout" to kick in when I dropped another level or two.

Apathy is comparatively rare, yes. (Sorry for the HN crowd for not getting into the data here, not enough time right now.) That's because the previous level is usually so painful that people end up changing something. Especially in engineering the market is so much better than in practically any other field that people who don't move out from the previous phase ('I hate everyone around me') mostly do this because they have something else going on in their lives. This, however (other things going on) is something that _prevents_ further burnout, because one of the best burnout prevention method is _purpose_. Example: working in a call center is mostly extremely stressful. Having a purpose like 'I do this to so that I am able to finish my degree' is an useful thing to prevent burnout. Working hard like hell on a startup for 6 months with a clear purpose usually doesn't cause a burnout (can cause other problems tho').

People who end up in the 'apathy' phase usually do so because they somehow lacked the purpose, the means of changing their situation and also the realization that things are going very badly. If you think that you're in the apathetic phase then you're likely not, because you still have some self-reflection.

Re: Burnoutindex.org

#92

Post by adrianmonk »

dnate wrote: post #76
acrefoot wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's possible to burn out working on things you think are important but that are chronically underfunded or ignored. For example, I can imagine working on cleantech or green NGOs only to be consistently frustrated that people don't want to pay for better recycling and cleaner energy, or want to reduce their water usage.

Also, that theory does not work with the fact, that a lot of burnout victims are social workers.

Exactly. Burnout can happen because you have a cynical malaise about your mission. But it can also happen because you are so passionate about your mission that where a normal person would understand reasonable boundaries between work and life, you can't resist the temptation to push right past them. (Which violates the principle of taking care of yourself first, so that you can take care of others.)

Sorry to bring up religion in polite conversation, but an interesting theory I've heard about church pastors is that sometimes they have extramarital affairs (partly) for an unusual reason. They feel called to do their type of work, but it's all-consuming, so they end up feeling conflicted. Part of them wants to quit, but another part cannot justify it. So instead of quitting, they do something which might or might not get them fired. It's a moral failing, but less of a moral failing than abandoning your mission. (Ultimately, it's just a way to not take responsibility for your choices, but that's human beings for you.)

Re: Burnoutindex.org

#93

Post by wjp3 »

bagacrap wrote: post #88

When I joined the tech industry in my early 20s and for years after, I noticed that many in their 30s or older seemed burned out. It didn't make much sense to me, because to become a tech worker takes drive and ambition and how would you just lose that one day? Now, 12 years on I can definitely see how burnout is so prevalent. It's like living in the desert and hearing about people drowning. You'd ask yourself, "how…

Same here, and your analogy was great.

Also, thanks for the laugh re: your username.

Re: Burnoutindex.org

#95

Post by Gibbon1 »

acrefoot wrote: post #29
tempsy wrote: post #15

I don't think burnout is really about overwork so much as spending even 40 hours a week doing something that is contrary to your own personal values. I suspect a lot of people work on things (ads, selling more crap, getting people in more debt, etc.) that they ultimately don't think really matter or are a net benefit to society.

I think it's possible to burn out working on things you think are important but that are chronically underfunded or ignored. For example, I can imagine working on cleantech or green NGOs only to be consistently frustrated that people don't want to pay for better recycling and cleaner energy, or want to reduce their water usage.

Reminds me a friend quit tech went to work for the state doing utility grade solar permitting. About 80% of the work he was doing for two years was just trying to nail down the proper process because people are going to sue. Including organizations you think of as allies, like the sierra club. And then the project he was working on was canceled.

badup bumm.

Re: Burnoutindex.org

#96

Post by samatman »

This is useless, unfortunately. I answered it honestly; I'm someone with a low-agreeableness personality, and some health problems (which have been improving, but nonetheless) which leave me pretty drained of energy at the end of the day.

This test doesn't even try to account for those things, and offers me a high risk of burnout despite low-to-perfect scores for everything else.

Re: Burnoutindex.org

#97

Post by ohN8eeohtai2 »

thrower123 wrote: post #7
jdkee wrote: post #3

Perhaps tech workers should unionize and demand better healthcare, 40 hour work weeks, etc.

I get the sentiment, but some perspective is in order. We're in the goddamn catbird seat. We make a shitload of money, we actually do have good health insurance, and we punch keyboards in a heated office at a desk. We're not mining coal or working in the fertilizer plant from The Jungle. In this economy, if your work environment sucks, the door is open and there are greener pastures. The biggest problem is really tha…

> I get the sentiment, but some perspective is in order.

Stop minimizing mental health issues. It's profoundly harmful!

Thousands of people in the world jumped off some bridge after being told "you have a good life, take it easy" one time too much.

> We're in the goddamn catbird seat.

A lot of developers have very undeserved jobs, yes.

> We make a shitload of money

Not everybody has the sheer privilege of being born in the right country. In most lands developers are quite underpaid.

> we punch keyboards in a heated office at a desk. We're not mining coal

If you are talking about modern coal mining - it's done by pressing buttons while sitting in a heated steel cabin.

If you are talking about mining with a shovel - that's some dishonest cherry-picking.

On top of that, burnout and suicide rate strongly correlates with feelings of doing a pointless job.

When cooking or building a house or mining coal people can be get a surprisingly amount of satisfaction from their output.

Re: Burnoutindex.org

#98

Post by ohN8eeohtai2 »

Grimm1 wrote: post #46
fogetti wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that this is not true. The average salary of a software engineer in Japan, Germany and other highly developed nations is only slightly better than let's say an accountant's. If we take the amortized hourly wage by considering unpaid overtime then it becomes even worse which is on par with an average high school teacher or alike. In some cases considering the unpaid overtime plus the unpaid self-studies it can…

Edit: I'm going to put this here because it clearly rubbed some people the wrong way, HN and YC were historically US focused they have since expanded but this site still has a large US population that view and post on it and with that come a bias for this group, including myself, to think in terms of the US market. My below statement, which to me is entirely benign, is basically saying that's what we do. Is it right?…

> you'll have to excuse that most things take a US centric view

No, you are not excused. This is not an US-only website. Please respect other people.

Re: Burnoutindex.org

#100

Post by gowld »

ghostbrainalpha wrote: post #71
sz4kerto wrote: post #45

Be really careful with these surveys. The problems of these, among other things: - mixing up burnout risk with burnout - mixing up burnout with physical or mental fatigue - not serving any purpose (i.e. not providing good directions) Burnout is primarily a negative change in perception, and it's a spectrum, obviously. You get burned out when your perception of the same situation gets progressively worse. This can be…

Wait.... "apathy" is rare? I thought that is the step where most of us have been hanging out. I have been waiting for the "real burnout" to kick in when I dropped another level or two.

Apathy at work is only possible if you have a nothing-required job where you can't get fired for not working. It happens, but commonly employers will notice and fire such an employee.
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