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Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

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Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#861

Post by perl4ever »

pferde wrote: post #298
perl4ever wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"you have to always be prepared for it to do something completely unexpected on a dime" This is inherently absurd, even if you remove the last three words. You could write an essay, or a book, on why this is an example of a class of impossible problems. Or, inverting it, it's practically the generic framework of all catastrophes.

You are being downvoted because your reply is basically an unnecessarily long "nuh-uh!" - a dismissal without any counterargument. Wrapping that in a string of fancy words does not change the fact that you are not providing any argument at all.

I agree with the sentence quoted, and wanted to amplify it by noting that when something unexpected happens, even if it happens rather slowly, it can be impossible to deal with it. Because when you see that your assumptions were at least partially wrong, you likely start to question all, or most, of your assumptions about everything. Which can paralyze you for an extended amount of time or lead to just thrashing around.

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#862

Post by perl4ever »

spookthesunset wrote: post #122
perl4ever wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, so how do you decide where it crosses the line? You can interpret it as a metaphor, or very literally. It seems unreasonable to me to interpret it exactly as literally as necessary to make your argument against Tesla the strongest.

Give me a break dude. Tesla’s marketing department knew exactly what they were doing when they called it “auto pilot”. And it wasn’t because somebody there looked up the “literal meaning” of “auto pilot” and rolled with that (though it certainly provides an easy out for their more... dedicated... fans to help defend the company)

I'm not a fan, owner, or shareholder of Tesla. I've repeatedly stated on HN that I think PHEVs are the future and not full electric cars.

What you think of Tesla has nothing to do with whether 2+2=4. If you don't want to discuss the same thing as another person, then go do something else.

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#863

Post by perl4ever »

retsibsi wrote: post #104
perl4ever wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not endorsing Tesla or their tech, and I stand behind what I wrote as demonstrating the alternative to taking "Autopilot" as a metaphor - taking it literally. If you don't like either one, what's your justification for interpreting Autopilot in a particular way?

I think the important questions are how people actually interpret it, and (if we want to judge Tesla) how they could reasonably have expected people to interpret it. I don't know exactly how they presented it to the public, but it definitely doesn't seem like a name you'd choose if you were keen to avoid having people overestimate its capabilities.

I think it's insane to identify the problem as being the name, rather than that using the technology inherently leads to a dangerous sense of confidence (assuming it doesn't in fact scare you out of continuing). As many people have said, the fundamental issue is the tiny amount of time between appropriate operation and disaster, and the better it works at first, the less prepared a person is when it goes haywire. This is the same no matter what you call it.

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#864

Post by aschatten »

fxtentacle wrote: post #187

I avoid new technology, exactly because I'm an engineer. I wonder if that is just me, but when new technology is introduced and hyped, I usually take a quick look at implementations, research, and talks just to get an idea of what the state of the art really is like. As a result, I have become the late adopter among my group of friends because the first iteration of any new technology usually just isn't worth the iss…

The biggest tech thing I am afraid of that all other people are excited about is digital election. ML field is pretty clear about its limitation.

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#865

Post by retsibsi »

perl4ever wrote: post #863
retsibsi wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the important questions are how people actually interpret it, and (if we want to judge Tesla) how they could reasonably have expected people to interpret it. I don't know exactly how they presented it to the public, but it definitely doesn't seem like a name you'd choose if you were keen to avoid having people overestimate its capabilities.

I think it's insane to identify the problem as being the name , rather than that using the technology inherently leads to a dangerous sense of confidence (assuming it doesn't in fact scare you out of continuing). As many people have said, the fundamental issue is the tiny amount of time between appropriate operation and disaster, and the better it works at first, the less prepared a person is when it goes haywire. Th…

Yeah I agree that that is a bigger problem. (And not just confidence, but concentration -- even if you know you can't trust the car, it must be a lot harder to stay properly alert when you have nothing to do 99% of the time.) I didn't mean to agree with anyone who thinks that the name is the problem, but I think it could plausibly make things worse by contributing to unrealistic expectations and gung-ho attitudes. It could also give us a clue about Tesla's attitude, and how they are balancing hyping the feature vs. trying to prevent driver complacency.

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#866

Post by judge2020 »

Alupis wrote: post #388
fxtentacle wrote: post #187

I avoid new technology, exactly because I'm an engineer. I wonder if that is just me, but when new technology is introduced and hyped, I usually take a quick look at implementations, research, and talks just to get an idea of what the state of the art really is like. As a result, I have become the late adopter among my group of friends because the first iteration of any new technology usually just isn't worth the iss…

This whole self driving, fully autonomous thing has become some sort of strange faux-religion. It's followers see no other possible solution as acceptable. Instead of putting our heads together to make really good driver assistance technologies and being satisfied, the darn thing needs to also drive itself everywhere otherwise we're leaving something on the table! Untill we have zero deaths, we cannot stop demanding…

All of the other solutions you mention is where engineering resources are actually going, save for maybe the seatbelt enhancements. Every new car effectively comes with pedestrian crash prevention[0]; also, Volvo had a car with a hood airbag in 2013, and it looks like other auto manufacturers are looking into it[1].

Self-driving is only as hyped as it is due to the futuristic lure of the idea.

0: https://youtu.be/6owYPHpmDLU 1: https://www.autoblog.com/2017/12/13/patent-gm-external-airba...

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#867

Post by JKCalhoun »

Alupis wrote: post #388
fxtentacle wrote: post #187

I avoid new technology, exactly because I'm an engineer. I wonder if that is just me, but when new technology is introduced and hyped, I usually take a quick look at implementations, research, and talks just to get an idea of what the state of the art really is like. As a result, I have become the late adopter among my group of friends because the first iteration of any new technology usually just isn't worth the iss…

This whole self driving, fully autonomous thing has become some sort of strange faux-religion. It's followers see no other possible solution as acceptable. Instead of putting our heads together to make really good driver assistance technologies and being satisfied, the darn thing needs to also drive itself everywhere otherwise we're leaving something on the table! Untill we have zero deaths, we cannot stop demanding…

Self-driving? It's called a bus.

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#868

Post by brokenmachine »

matwood wrote: post #526
Alupis wrote: post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This whole self driving, fully autonomous thing has become some sort of strange faux-religion. It's followers see no other possible solution as acceptable. Instead of putting our heads together to make really good driver assistance technologies and being satisfied, the darn thing needs to also drive itself everywhere otherwise we're leaving something on the table! Untill we have zero deaths, we cannot stop demanding…

> This whole self driving, fully autonomous thing has become some sort of strange faux-religion. Just follow the money. The near future financials of companies like Uber and Lyft (and to a lesses extent Tesla), rely on fully autonomous self driving.

And that is why they will fail. You heard it here first.

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#869

Post by chillacy »

mgoetzke wrote: post #232
adaisadais wrote: post #190

Tesla has some blame in this for sure but Caltrans (maintainers of the 101) are equally if not more to blame. California is rich in capital but so poor infrastructure. Moving here from South Carolina(where taxes are much lower and roads are paltry) I was shocked at how dismal a state many of the roads are and at the sheer amount of time it takes to complete. Patrick Collison of Stripe actually wrote a blog piece(1) c…

Many US citizens I talk to, seem to have the stance that they do not want to pay any taxes and that taxation is theft. I am sure California and others could do more and be held accountable (every service provider should and must be), but that attitude has to change too.

CA already has some of the highest taxes in the nation but the roads and public transportation aren't leaps and bounds better than the cheaper states. I'm not convinced raising taxes would help without fixing the accountability issue.

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#870

Post by mikekchar »

eloisant wrote: post #343
ironmagma wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Call it speculation, but most people don’t really want all the consequences that come with the distinct lack of it in the US. Especially when you consider the economic effects of walkable areas.

While it is true that Americans rely a bit too much on their cars, and have built infrastructure based on it instead of public transportation, it's hard to envision a world where individual transportation is no longer needed. Look at Japan, they have a great train network but still use cars a lot. Because while train works well in cities, you still need people living in the country side to grow your food.

I live in rural Japan and own a car. However, I lived here without one for over 5 years. My apartment building is surrounded on 3 sides by rice fields, so it gives you an idea of just how rural it is. I can walk from one end of the town where I live to the other in 20 minutes. In that space there are 3 grocery stores, 2 hardware stores, a butcher, 2 fish mongers, 1 tofu shop, 2 flower shops at least 5 barbers, 3 doctors, 2 optometrists, many bars, restaurants, cafes, etc, etc, etc. I moved from suburban Canada. In 20 minutes I wouldn't be able to walk out of my neighbourhood of cul-de-sacs lined with identical houses. Not even a single convenience store. It's a commercial waste land.

In rural Japan, cars are used. In suburban Canada, cars are necessary. There are definitely more rural areas in Japan than where I live. I live in an actual town. If you are up in the mountains, or live far away from a town, a car is probably necessary. However, for the vast majority of people who live in this country, it is not.

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