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MWC 2020 canceled over coronavirus health concerns

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Re: MWC 2020 canceled over coronavirus health concerns

#61
post #9

It doesn't make sense from a medical point of view. China, and specifically Hubei Province and its capital Wuhan, suffer an epidemic that they are trying to control with titanic efforts. 99% of cases of coronavirus (COVID-19) infection, today more than 40,000 with a thousand deaths, have been registered in China. Of them, almost 70% in Hubei. Only 1% of cases have been registered outside China, in 24 countries (inclu…

> Only 1% of cases have been registered outside China, in 24 countries (including Spain), with transmission chains (secondary cases from a first imported case) very short so far.

It seems completely unsurprising to me that we aren't seeing more cases in other countries so far - almost every country with the exception of Singapore are only testing people who have been in Hubei (or China, if symptoms are serious). Meanwhile Singapore, which actually has been testing more people, has been finding more and more locally transmitted cases, despite huge efforts tracking down and isolating contacts of previous cases.

>Serious cases and mortality (2%) will be adjusted downwards safely in the coming weeks, as the detection of mild cases increases.

Or it could adjust upward, as it seems to often take 3+ weeks to kill. In Singapore 8/50 cases are in critical condition in the ICU (And Singapore has detected many mild cases, even asymptomatic ones). For the flu in the U.S. it seems about 0.1% of cases end up in the ICU, so that's some compelling evidence that this is 10-100x as dangerous as the flu. And what happens to the fatality rate when we run out of ICU beds, as already happens during particularly bad flu seasons?

I'm not saying this will be globally devastating, but I think the chance is high enough that I'm disappointed more extreme actions aren't being taken worldwide.

edit: I also assume the case numbers in China outside of Hubei have been looking better recently because they also can no longer rely on the fact that a sick person has recently been to Hubei to know who to test.

Re: MWC 2020 canceled over coronavirus health concerns

#62
post #9

It doesn't make sense from a medical point of view. China, and specifically Hubei Province and its capital Wuhan, suffer an epidemic that they are trying to control with titanic efforts. 99% of cases of coronavirus (COVID-19) infection, today more than 40,000 with a thousand deaths, have been registered in China. Of them, almost 70% in Hubei. Only 1% of cases have been registered outside China, in 24 countries (inclu…

From what I understand, the medical community is treating this outbreak with such extreme measures because this virus is a perfect storm of factors that could lead to a new annual disease emerging, just like the flu and cold. It's deadly enough to become a major global concern and transmissible enough that it can continue spreading via asymptomatic hosts and other viral reservoirs between outbreaks. The jury is still out on the virus's rate of mutation but other coronaviruses, like the ones that cause a tenth of common colds, are known to mutate rapidly.

If we fail to stop the spread of the virus now, it may become a fact of life with an even higher annual death rate than the flu. We've already got plenty of infectious diseases and based on the data so far, it's worth extreme measures trying to stop it.

Re: MWC 2020 canceled over coronavirus health concerns

#63

I just can't understand why the stock market keeps going up.

No clue about the stock market.

But here is some interesting real-time traffic congestion data plotted with 2019 averages for cities. Gives a sense of how many people are going back to work.

Scroll down and click "Last 7 days"

Notice SF & London are trending with 2019 averages:

SF: https://www.tomtom.com/en_gb/traffic-index/san-francisco-tra...

London: https://www.tomtom.com/en_gb/traffic-index/london-traffic

Then compare:

Wuhan: https://www.tomtom.com/en_gb/traffic-index/wuhan-traffic

Shanghai: https://www.tomtom.com/en_gb/traffic-index/shanghai-traffic

Beijing: https://www.tomtom.com/en_gb/traffic-index/beijing-traffic

Shenzen: https://www.tomtom.com/en_gb/traffic-index/shenzhen-traffic

Hong Kong: https://www.tomtom.com/en_gb/traffic-index/hong-kong-traffic

Re: MWC 2020 canceled over coronavirus health concerns

#64
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Suicide is a big problem, buy it's scary in a different way. I'm not personally worried about a suicide epidemic, or catching suicide from someone.

And yet there are actually suicide clusters, with people essentially "catching it" from their friends or loved ones who've committed suicide.

This seems like equivocation on the meaning of "catching it." Isolating yourself so that you either have no close relationships or somehow never hear about any suicides among your close relationships is a fairly nonsensical proposal, and probably wouldn't in fact decrease your chances of committing suicide.

Re: MWC 2020 canceled over coronavirus health concerns

#65
post #9

It doesn't make sense from a medical point of view. China, and specifically Hubei Province and its capital Wuhan, suffer an epidemic that they are trying to control with titanic efforts. 99% of cases of coronavirus (COVID-19) infection, today more than 40,000 with a thousand deaths, have been registered in China. Of them, almost 70% in Hubei. Only 1% of cases have been registered outside China, in 24 countries (inclu…

And still, there was one super spreader that was linked to 11 cases:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/coronavirus-...

Re: MWC 2020 canceled over coronavirus health concerns

#66
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For flu, each sick person infects 1 person. So Ro is 1. This means no quarantine needed. But for covid-19 estimated Ro is around 2.5. So containing this virus requires quarantine. Also this is a novel virus which means this strain is new and may be unpredictable. Mutations may occur. We even not sure about source of the virus. If it spreads all over the world it could logarithmicly grow in number. Especially for unde…

I'm not a doctor or a public health expert, but it seems to be that unqualified uncertainty should not be used as justification for any action other than pursuing more information to qualify that uncertainty. Otherwise we would maximally quarantine any illness for which we are at all uncertain of an upper bound on its basic reproduction number or mortality.

I am. The most important factor here is Ro not uncertainty. Maybe I should emphasize it more.

Re: MWC 2020 canceled over coronavirus health concerns

#67
post #32
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Was waiting for this. The flu kills 10000 people a year in the US and pneumonia kills 45000. Suicide kills 47000 a year which makes you wonder why we aren't spending more effort on mental health given it's a bigger cause of death. CDC ref: https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/deaths.htm

Why not? Because math . This is a contagion. Read about the Spanish Flu. This looks to be both more contagious, and more deadly in most of the published studies. We hope they are biased and overly pessimistic, but whataboutism isn't helpful here. Your argument is like if the rug in your living room is on fire, and you say "why worry about that rug--we should really invest in fixing that roof leak." I agree roof leaks…

Here are the CDC burden (upper bound) estimates for the 2019-2020 flu season: 30 million infections, 30k deaths. In other words, 0.1% of infections are predicted to be fatal, which is substantially lower than the current estimates for 2019-nCoV.

https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/preliminary-in-season-e...

Re: MWC 2020 canceled over coronavirus health concerns

#68
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For flu, each sick person infects 1 person. So Ro is 1. This means no quarantine needed. But for covid-19 estimated Ro is around 2.5. So containing this virus requires quarantine. Also this is a novel virus which means this strain is new and may be unpredictable. Mutations may occur. We even not sure about source of the virus. If it spreads all over the world it could logarithmicly grow in number. Especially for unde…

I'm not a doctor or a public health expert, but it seems to be that unqualified uncertainty should not be used as justification for any action other than pursuing more information to qualify that uncertainty. Otherwise we would maximally quarantine any illness for which we are at all uncertain of an upper bound on its basic reproduction number or mortality.

There are degrees of uncertainty, and ranges of plausible severity, even when we haven't actually nailed these down quantitatively. We already have enough information about COVID-19 to raise it far above the threat level of a random virus. And given how quickly and stealthily it seems to be capable of spreading, to take no action beyond 'pursuing more information' would be almost the same as assuming the best possible resolution of our uncertainty. That's no more rational than the other extreme of assuming the very worst.

Re: MWC 2020 canceled over coronavirus health concerns

#70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re right, except cases are not in exponential growth for a period of time already if you’ve been following closely. Right now it’s more or less linear

Hadn't looked for a few days. It does appear to be attenuating--hope that holds up. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019%E2%80%9320_Wuhan_coronavi...

Keep in mind, the right model is a large number of overlapping S-curves. The virus may spread like wildfire once it's entered a city, but it first has to do so.

Wuhan is nearing the top of its S-curve, while other cities are still near the start. As such it would make sense for the number of cases to slow down even if it isn't actually being stopped.

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