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Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

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Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#741

Post by microcolonel »

MereInterest wrote: post #661
wbl wrote: post #650

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Modern cars are deadly to pedestrians, especially SUVs.

Reading through the crash test procedure, it is astounding how little attention is paid to pedestrians. 1. Front crash test. Procedure: Crash car into stationary barrier at 35 mph. Is also applicable to face-to-face crash with car of same size, going at same speed. 2. Side crash test. Procedure: Slam concrete block into side of stationary car at 38.5 mph. 3. Side pole test. Procedure: Drag car sideways towards a pole…

> Reading through the crash test procedure, it is astounding how little attention is paid to pedestrians.

In the U.S. at least, pedestrian safety concerns mainly affect prescriptive legislation (i.e. no pop up headlights). Some countries and blocs have testing similar to crash tests, but I'm not really sure how effective something like that is: any meaningful standard would need to have exceptions for different categories of vehicle. Though honestly I can't see that much can be done about pedestrian safety once your vehicle is colliding with a human being.

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#742

Post by lovehashbrowns »

jschwartzi wrote: post #677
lovehashbrowns wrote: post #652

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's "proof" that computers can be safer than humans. Faster reaction times, don't get tired, don't lose focus, can perform computations much faster than humans.

All that goes to show that a computer can make mistakes much faster than humans. You didn’t say anything about how that guarantees the computer only makes safe decisions.

But that's kinda the whole point of AI, isn't it? It's a circular argument, computers currently can't make safe decisions, therefore they will never make safe decisions.

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#743

Post by lovehashbrowns »

briandear wrote: post #736
lovehashbrowns wrote: post #652

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's "proof" that computers can be safer than humans. Faster reaction times, don't get tired, don't lose focus, can perform computations much faster than humans.

Computers don’t exercise judgment.

The point of AI is to have computers exercise some form of judgement. What is there to suggest that they can't do that?

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#744

Post by dave5104 »

jerkstate wrote: post #734
jhallenworld wrote: post #727

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe he was fulfilling Apple's demands: either attend a meeting on the phone while driving, or wake up earlier. (Definitely not singling out Apple here.. at IBM I had a coworker who was in an accident during a phone meeting- luckily non-fatal).

I have coworkers who regularly take meetings or text chat/email while driving. It makes me uncomfortable. I have tried hinting that it's a bad idea, but don't feel comfortable telling them directly (don't think it would do anything except harm our relationship due to me questioning their judgement) or reporting to HR (fear of retaliation, some of the coworkers are senior to me in the management chain). On the other h…

"Are you driving right now? We can reschedule to something more convenient for you? I don't want you to get pulled over."

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#745

Post by kbenson »

Alupis wrote: post #388
fxtentacle wrote: post #187

I avoid new technology, exactly because I'm an engineer. I wonder if that is just me, but when new technology is introduced and hyped, I usually take a quick look at implementations, research, and talks just to get an idea of what the state of the art really is like. As a result, I have become the late adopter among my group of friends because the first iteration of any new technology usually just isn't worth the iss…

This whole self driving, fully autonomous thing has become some sort of strange faux-religion. It's followers see no other possible solution as acceptable. Instead of putting our heads together to make really good driver assistance technologies and being satisfied, the darn thing needs to also drive itself everywhere otherwise we're leaving something on the table! Untill we have zero deaths, we cannot stop demanding…

What's really annoying to me is that we've been sold computer vision as the current solution, when it's obvious that if it is the eventual solution it's a long time out because our understanding of the field just isn't nearly as strong as it needs to be, but it's edged out a lot of interim solutions that could have been a lot safer, even if they have downsides.

For example, we could have embedded special markers (or spikes with RFID, or more active wireless, or any number of things that could have provided far more accurate lane detection as long as we were willing to require some up-front work to deploy it for special routes. Combined with very reliable lane detection and restricted to specific deployed areas where it could be tested, computer vision and/or radar/lidar for vehicle and large object detection (which would be mostly sufficient for most highway/freeway use) could likely provide a very safe system. The lower requirements for achieving safety might mean we could actually get some busses outfitted as well.

But that would require some actual state action, as no private company would (or should, if they were to keep it proprietary at least) deploy along large stretches of highway freeway. Covering I-5 from Northern California to Southern California would provide many opportunities, but be an enormous cost.

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#746

Post by 6gvONxR4sf7o »

dkonofalski wrote: post #639
fxtentacle wrote: post #187

I avoid new technology, exactly because I'm an engineer. I wonder if that is just me, but when new technology is introduced and hyped, I usually take a quick look at implementations, research, and talks just to get an idea of what the state of the art really is like. As a result, I have become the late adopter among my group of friends because the first iteration of any new technology usually just isn't worth the iss…

This is why I don't understand the sad conclusion of the story in the article. The driver knew that AutoPilot had issues with that stretch of the freeway and was able to repeat the issues on several occasions but still thought it best to be on his phone, while driving 71 mph, at the mercy of AutoPilot? Especially considering that he was an engineer who had expressed concern over this, it seems silly to me that he wou…

> ...but still thought it best to be on his phone, while driving 71 mph, at the mercy of AutoPilot?

> Records from an iPhone recovered from the crash site showed that Huang may have been using it before the accident. Records obtained from AT&T showed that data had been used while the vehicle was in motion, but the source of the transmissions couldn't be determined, the NTSB wrote. One transmission was less than one minute before the crash.

For all we know, that could mean he had spotify on.

Anyhow, "he was worried about it" is no reason to shift the blame to him.

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#747

Post by ilikepi »

daemin wrote: post #648
tim333 wrote: post #610

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Re robbers, car jackers and the like in some ways you may be better with a self driving car as they seem to be covered with cameras and report back to base the whole time so the crooks would be photographed and the cops called. Already the Tesla cameras have caught a few https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqBWt9rRx-U Re all the edge cases - yeah that'll take a while.

There was a movie which featured autonomously driving trucks, they were held up and stolen from by the bandits putting a cow in front of them, then just taking the cargo while it was stopped. You can certainly have all the cameras that you need but if the bad guys have their faces covered and identifying marks hidden then you're not going to be able to do much.

> There was a movie...

I'm pretty sure there is an early scene in the movie Solar Crisis[1] that plays out similarly to what you're describing. This movie was on one of the cable movie channels when I was growing up, so I got a higher-than-normal dose of it.

I don't remember a cow, though (but then this probably isn't the only sci-fi movie out there with such a scene). I think one of the characters first parked a motorcycle in the road, but the truck plowed through it. After that, they stood in the road instead, and that caused the truck to screech to a stop right in front of them, blasting a message on a PA about how they were breaking the law by impeding it.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_Crisis_(film)

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#748

Post by LeifCarrotson »

iancmceachern wrote: post #206
fxtentacle wrote: post #187

I avoid new technology, exactly because I'm an engineer. I wonder if that is just me, but when new technology is introduced and hyped, I usually take a quick look at implementations, research, and talks just to get an idea of what the state of the art really is like. As a result, I have become the late adopter among my group of friends because the first iteration of any new technology usually just isn't worth the iss…

I design medical devices and have the exact same opinion. It's the same logic as avoiding the first model year of production when buying a used car.

I design industrial automation equipment and have much the same feelings about those devices. I've programmed robot cells, with redundant software and hardware safety systems. I've run through the checklists to make sure the operators are SIL-3 safe with a high-speed high-power robot running just inches away through a piece of 1/4" polycarbonate - there to keep the operators out, it won't keep the robot in. I know all the engineering that goes into those systems, and that's why I will never ride a Kuka-coaster (a chair bolted to a 6-axis robot).

Also, I'm quick to reach for a simple pneumatic cylinder to solve a problem. Perfectly capable of using new electric-servo-ballscrew-hotness to do a similar move, but the value provided by tried-and-tested systems is hard to overstate.

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#749

Post by bdamm »

UI_at_80x24 wrote: post #631
neuronic wrote: post #441

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This whole self driving, fully autonomous thing has become some sort of strange faux-religion. What really bugs me, as someone working in consulting as a hands-on backend developer with a previous background in technical consulting at an accounting Big4 (student job), is the insane amount of PR, politics and marketing talk by people who have ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA what they are talking about. I witnessed politicians an…

>...without a single brain-byte spent on ... This is a glorious Gibson-esq turn of phrase that I hope goes down in history and is picked up in common vernacular. Back on topic: The more I know about technology the less I want it or trust it to work. I assume this is similar to Pilots not wanting somebody else to fly, or surgeons not wanting to go under the knife. We know, that we don't know enough about autonomous dr…

We know that, but also we ought to know that pushing through the hard problems by rolling out systems operating world-wide and interacting with real people is the only way forward toward improved safety, reduced mental slavery to the menial task of driving, and the time and relationship freedom that comes with it. So yep, I let my Tesla do lots of driving. And I do it knowing that the brake pedal and the steering wheel are both manual controls that I can use to override the car at any time, no matter what. That is why I feel so comfortable.

And you know what? It's wonderful. It really is. I am free to look around and see other people on the freeway. They look so bored. So tired. So used up. Meanwhile my wife and I, we turn on the careoke machine and sing our way to the destination. It is absolutely the way to go. You can take my Tesla and its AP functions out of my cold dead hands. Maybe that's how I go, and I'm alright with it.

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#750

Post by jhallenworld »

root_axis wrote: post #739
jhallenworld wrote: post #727

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe he was fulfilling Apple's demands: either attend a meeting on the phone while driving, or wake up earlier. (Definitely not singling out Apple here.. at IBM I had a coworker who was in an accident during a phone meeting- luckily non-fatal).

> Recovered phone logs show that a strategy game called “Three Kingdoms” was “active during the driver’s trip to work,” the NTSB said. Investigators said the log data “does not provide enough information to ascertain” whether Huang “was holding the phone or how interactive he was,” though it said “most players have both hands on the phone to support the device and manipulate game actions.” Huang’s data usage was “con…

I didn't see that in the original article, but I do see it here:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/transportation/2020/02/11/tel...

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