Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#731

Post by nradov » Wed, Feb 12, 2020, 4:50 PM UTC

perl4ever wrote: post #40

salimmadjd wrote: post #12

This is sad and tragic. I remember going with a friend on a Tesla test drive. He was eager to try the Autopilot system. And within a few minutes we got freaked out with what seem to us as unpredictable action and we turned it off. I think the engineer should have never relied on it. Especially if he had concerns with the system. At the same time, "Autopilot" is misleading and Tesla does own responsibility here. Even…

"And within a few minutes we got freaked out with what seem to us as unpredictable action and we turned it off." On the one hand, I'm affected by the FUD and will not buy a Tesla, and perhaps also will have schadenfreude to the extent their CEO has misfortunes. On the other hand, to be fair, other driver assistance features are creating problems too. I think it was Subaru I was just reading about having serious probl…

There is no current recall for Subaru EyeSight. Perhaps you're thinking of a different manufacturer?

Subaru did have a recall several years ago due to an electrical problem which could prevent automatic braking (not trigger inappropriately).

https://www.consumerreports.org/cro/news/2015/06/subaru-reca...

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#732

Post by FactolSarin » Wed, Feb 12, 2020, 4:51 PM UTC

briandear wrote: post #728

fxtentacle wrote: post #517

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Count me guilty then, because I am also hoping to one day take a nap while the car drives me around. Until then, I found the next best thing is booking an Uber. They'll even use venture capital to subsidize my ride :) But wait, isn't that exactly why they are now in such a rush and cannot accept anything less than full autonomy? From what I heard, Uber has been burning billions of VC money to capture market share. An…

> So they attempted trickery to pay them less as "independent" contractors An Uber driver is the very definition of an independent contractor. Many drivers also drive for Lyft. How can they be “employees” of Uber while also driving Lyft? Or doing Door Dash? If Uber drivers were employees, they would have to work where and when assigned. As it is now, Uber drivers come and go as they please. I am not sure how an Uber…

You are aware that people can have multiple jobs, right? It's very common for poorer people especially

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#733

Post by briandear » Wed, Feb 12, 2020, 4:55 PM UTC

asah wrote: post #663

Alupis wrote: post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This whole self driving, fully autonomous thing has become some sort of strange faux-religion. It's followers see no other possible solution as acceptable. Instead of putting our heads together to make really good driver assistance technologies and being satisfied, the darn thing needs to also drive itself everywhere otherwise we're leaving something on the table! Untill we have zero deaths, we cannot stop demanding…

For selected use cases, self driving makes a ton of sense to me. example: stop-and-go traffic - instead we could unlock millions of hours of human productivity (or provide entertainment). example: self-parking and come-to-me, esp in closed garages. Parallel parking is hard for humans and we're poor at space utilization. example: environments where obstructions are unlikely... airplanes have had auto-pilot for a long…

> airplanes have had auto-pilot for a long time... why not highway 80 in the middle of nowhere?

You don’t get a stalled car on a Victor airway in the sky. You also don’t have to worry about obstacle avoidance for the most part, in the sky. If an aviation autopilot can’t hold the altitude or heading (such as in turbulence or in mountain up and downdrafts,) it will simply keep the wings level. Airplane autopilots follow explicit instructions: fly heading 143 at 14000 feet; descend at 500 fpm. Hold over a VOR using 1 minute legs at 200kts.

A car autopilot on the other hand, has to react to the physical surroundings. Not only “follow the I-10 at 75mph,” but also, watch out for incoming traffic, lane closures, or some kid on a bicycle that wanders into the road, or a dead animal in the road, or wet roads, icy roads, etc. There is no such thing as Instrument Flight Rules for driving, meaning a car autopilot has to be aware of the visual, while an airplane doesn’t: it just flies the precise route programmed without any awareness that the route might fly through a flock of geese. An airplane autopilot will fly you right into the ground if you let it. There is a lot of skill and training around airplane autopilot, and while it’s amazing and useful, it’s a lot more than simply turning it on and it flies you automatically to Denver.

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#734

Post by jerkstate » Wed, Feb 12, 2020, 4:55 PM UTC

jhallenworld wrote: post #727

dkonofalski wrote: post #639

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why I don't understand the sad conclusion of the story in the article. The driver knew that AutoPilot had issues with that stretch of the freeway and was able to repeat the issues on several occasions but still thought it best to be on his phone, while driving 71 mph, at the mercy of AutoPilot? Especially considering that he was an engineer who had expressed concern over this, it seems silly to me that he wou…

Maybe he was fulfilling Apple's demands: either attend a meeting on the phone while driving, or wake up earlier. (Definitely not singling out Apple here.. at IBM I had a coworker who was in an accident during a phone meeting- luckily non-fatal).

I have coworkers who regularly take meetings or text chat/email while driving. It makes me uncomfortable. I have tried hinting that it's a bad idea, but don't feel comfortable telling them directly (don't think it would do anything except harm our relationship due to me questioning their judgement) or reporting to HR (fear of retaliation, some of the coworkers are senior to me in the management chain). On the other hand my discomfort kind of makes me feel like a busybody. 99 times out of 100 nothing will happen and the 100th time will probably just be a fenderbender. Not sure what to do except continue feeling uncomfortable with it.

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#735

Post by nradov » Wed, Feb 12, 2020, 4:56 PM UTC

salgernon wrote: post #63

perl4ever wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"And within a few minutes we got freaked out with what seem to us as unpredictable action and we turned it off." On the one hand, I'm affected by the FUD and will not buy a Tesla, and perhaps also will have schadenfreude to the extent their CEO has misfortunes. On the other hand, to be fair, other driver assistance features are creating problems too. I think it was Subaru I was just reading about having serious probl…

I have a Subaru with some sort of "Eye Sight" feature. It is quite handy in maintaining a constant distance from a car in front of you in moderate traffic - but you have to always be ready for someone to cut you off. It tracks the lane markers and rumbles the steering wheel. If a car stops short ahead of you, it beeps and flashes an indicator - I'm usually on the ball enough to hit the brakes myself though, so I don'…

Subaru EyeSight will do automatic braking under limited circumstances. It only works to reduce the risk or severity of forward collisions when the cameras can see clearly. Overall it's better than nothing and worth the minor extra cost.

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#736

Post by briandear » Wed, Feb 12, 2020, 4:56 PM UTC

lovehashbrowns wrote: post #652

snowwrestler wrote: post #605

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is zero proof that autonomous vehicles can be safer than human drivers. There’s lots of proof that autonomous vehicles are technically possible, but the leap to “definitely better than humans” is a very big one and it’s really being taken on faith right now. In contrast, treating disease directly affect the incidence of that disease.

There's "proof" that computers can be safer than humans. Faster reaction times, don't get tired, don't lose focus, can perform computations much faster than humans.

Computers don’t exercise judgment.

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#737

Post by nradov » Wed, Feb 12, 2020, 5:01 PM UTC

spookthesunset wrote: post #109

nzrf wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also own a Subaru. The assistance is very unwelcome for the crash detection at times. Living in Minnesota the exhaust from a car in front of you can set it off. This can happen on start off of a green light and can completely decelerate the Subaru. The eyesight detects the exhaust as obstacle the car behind you is now at a loss why you are now immediately breaking off the green light. I’m not a fan at all and eye s…

The Subaru doesn’t have a forward radar does it? I heard it uses two optical camera instead. I bet smoke/water vapor can trip that up... Our Mazda gets tripped up when adaptive cruise is engaged and someone pulls into the turn lane to make a left. It also can sometimes get “spooked” on the interstate when going on turns and trucks are in adjacent lanes. Hasn’t freaked out with collision warnings though. Every time it…

Subaru EyeSight uses two stereoscopic video cameras only: no radar, lidar, or ultrasonics. It was engineered to achieve the maximum possible safety improvement at minimum cost. And it basically succeeded at that, but it's very limited. Can only sense straight ahead, doesn't work at all in fog or heavy precipitation, etc.

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#738

Post by microcolonel » Wed, Feb 12, 2020, 5:02 PM UTC

Tesla's autopilot has now actively hurtled their cars at full speed into concrete barriers on more than one occasion.

They really need to work on this, or they will ruin self-driving for everyone. This is basically a new class of collision, this is not the ordinary way people die on highways. If they can not avoid actively smashing their customers at over 100km/h into solid concrete barriers, on major roads near their company headquarters, then I don't know how they can make this feature so accessible to a broad customer base.

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#739

Post by root_axis » Wed, Feb 12, 2020, 5:06 PM UTC

jhallenworld wrote: post #727

dkonofalski wrote: post #639

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why I don't understand the sad conclusion of the story in the article. The driver knew that AutoPilot had issues with that stretch of the freeway and was able to repeat the issues on several occasions but still thought it best to be on his phone, while driving 71 mph, at the mercy of AutoPilot? Especially considering that he was an engineer who had expressed concern over this, it seems silly to me that he wou…

Maybe he was fulfilling Apple's demands: either attend a meeting on the phone while driving, or wake up earlier. (Definitely not singling out Apple here.. at IBM I had a coworker who was in an accident during a phone meeting- luckily non-fatal).

> Recovered phone logs show that a strategy game called “Three Kingdoms” was “active during the driver’s trip to work,” the NTSB said. Investigators said the log data “does not provide enough information to ascertain” whether Huang “was holding the phone or how interactive he was,” though it said “most players have both hands on the phone to support the device and manipulate game actions.” Huang’s data usage was “consistent” with online game activity “about the time of the crash,” according to the NTSB.

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#740

Post by briandear » Wed, Feb 12, 2020, 5:06 PM UTC

arethuza wrote: post #454

krzat wrote: post #428

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if it's possible to solve noise problem with flying cars. Maybe use active noise cancellation at the source? No idea if it's even theoretically possible, but would be neat.

Aren't flying cars going to be much noisier than surface cars?

Joby is using some low noise props that are very effective. Quieter than most of the ridiculous motorcycles and loud cars on the 101.

If we care about noise, we should be addressing the motorcycle industry. I can’t hear a C-130 flying overhead at 1000 feet when I am in my house, but I can hear motorcycles zipping by on the freeway behind my house.