Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#541

Post by aguyfromnb » Wed, Feb 12, 2020, 1:02 PM UTC

ascar wrote: post #334

stephenr wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Granted, we're not quite ready for self driving And yet it's literally in cars on the road. I'm not saying you're wrong because of that. I just wonder how far from "ready" we are, and how much of a gamble manufacturers are taking, and how much risk that presents for not just their customers, but everyone else their customers may drive near.

Based on tesla's safety report [1] it's already less dangerous than letting humans drive (alone). The error rate of human drivers tends to be downplayed, while the perceived risks of automated driving is exaggerated, distorting the picture. Yes, it's a hard problem, yes we are not nearly there and there is a lot of development/research to do. Yes, accidents will happen during the process. But humans suck at driving a…

>Based on tesla's safety report [1] it's already less dangerous than letting humans drive (alone)

You mean the company that has staked it's future on selling this technology claims the technology is better than any alternative?

This is aside from the fact that the NHTSA says the claim of "safest ever" is nonsense and that there is zero data in that PR blog post.

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#542

Post by bluGill » Wed, Feb 12, 2020, 1:02 PM UTC

TheAdamist wrote: post #525

keanzu wrote: post #483

Earlier quoted context omitted.

SAE Level 5 is completely transformative, it will utterly change the market and the use of cars. Once you can conveniently call up an automated Uber the need, at least in cities, to buy your own car will effectively vanish. This is Uber's endgame - get humans out of the loop. As long as cars still need human drivers this cost savings can't be realized. > Forget better braking systems that apply themselves automatical…

Uber has no relevance once level 5 exists. Vehicle manufacturers will run the vehicles directly if there is any profit to be made from a taxi service.

I doubt it. Vertical integration only works so far.

I think the manufactures will sell cars to those want to run a taxi company. This is, and will remain a race to the bottom because competition is fierce: people buy price and first to get to them.

They will also sell cars to normal people. Most people don't think about how convenient it is to have the storage of their personal car. If parking is free or cheap (which is it in the suburbs) having your golf clubs in the trunk or a spare diaper in the glove box are worth the little extra cost, not to mention your car is always there so no need to wait for the taxi to in busy times.

Of course there is also the city, but if you live in a city self driving cars still suffer from congestion and so public mass transit still has big advantages. In fact because the self driving taxi is spending time empty waiting for the next rider it adds to the problem meaning for even more people public transit is worth the hassles with it (which in turn means more demand to make transit better)

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#543

Post by stephenr » Wed, Feb 12, 2020, 1:02 PM UTC

aguyfromnb wrote: post #540

stephenr wrote: post #537

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Then you'd have to define what a self-driving car actually means. I said "for most people". For most people I know, a car that will change lanes, navigate freeways and even exit freeways is "self driving". It may be completely unreliable but even a toaster that always burns the bread is called a toaster: no one says "you need to define what a toaster means to you". > At least for me, self-driving means level 4 upwa…

> It may be completely unreliable but even a toaster that always burns the bread is called a toaster This argument is leaning toward the ridiculous. I think only you and Elon Musk consider a "greater than zero chance of making it to your destination without intervention" to be self-driving.

And I think you're being ridiculously pedantic if you think that a list of caveats and asterisks in the fine print means that average Joe B. Motorist doesn't view the Autopilot/Summon/etc features as some degree of "self driving".

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#544

Post by Klathmon » Wed, Feb 12, 2020, 1:03 PM UTC

reallydontask wrote: post #218

skolsuper wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they truly believe that the autopilot driving is safer than unassisted, they might reasonably consider it an immoral act not to ship it. Given the number of lives lost in auto accidents every day, the issue is not as clear-cut as you're suggesting. It's a real-world trolley problem.

> If they truly believe that the autopilot driving is safer than unassisted, they might reasonably consider it an immoral act not to ship it. Then Tesla should be given it away, not charging extra for it. To do otherwise would be immoral.

They do.

Autopilot is standard in every single car Tesla sells now, for exactly this reason.

Here is the blog post on their website where they talk about making it standard: https://www.tesla.com/blog/update-our-vehicle-lineup

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#545

Post by koheripbal » Wed, Feb 12, 2020, 1:05 PM UTC

xkemp wrote: post #500

neuronic wrote: post #441

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This whole self driving, fully autonomous thing has become some sort of strange faux-religion. What really bugs me, as someone working in consulting as a hands-on backend developer with a previous background in technical consulting at an accounting Big4 (student job), is the insane amount of PR, politics and marketing talk by people who have ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA what they are talking about. I witnessed politicians an…

Predicting with All-Caps confidence that autonomous driving is "decades away" is at least as indefensible as overly optimistic predictions were.

Having driven in Canadian winters, I honestly agree that reliable autonomous driving in inclement weather is indeed decades away.

The visual recognition needed is well beyond the systems today.

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#546

Post by WA » Wed, Feb 12, 2020, 1:07 PM UTC

Erlich_Bachman wrote: post #481

WA wrote: post #423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the hundreds of YouTube videos where people sleep at the wheel of their Tesla or do something else.

Are you making Tesla inc responsible for videos that some other people put up on the internet? How would you even propose to police this, to make it illegal to use a car in a video unless the usage is somehow approved by the car manufacturer?

- Tesla makes a product and calls it Autopilot

- Autopilot has an option for "full self driving capabilities" (with lots of promises for the future and an unclear description what it actually can do right now)

- People buy a Tesla and indeed seem to have a self-driving car if they sleep at the wheel

- Tesla doesn’t attempt to make it right that this shouldn’t be done as far as I can tell

- Some people believe that Teslas drive themselves mostly.

Is Tesla directly responsible for these videos? Not directly, but at least they benefit from a highly suggestive product.

Could they do more to reduce the suggestive marketing? Absolutely. Do they want to? Probably not. Should they? I don’t know. That is what we’re discussing here.

I have a bit of a background with medical devices. For these, you have to make it absolutely clear what the device is for and what not. You also have to have a post market surveillance system that monitors how people use or abuse your medical device. From that perspective, Tesla could be doing more to have their driving assistant be perceived in a more realistic way.

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#547

Post by vonmoltke » Wed, Feb 12, 2020, 1:07 PM UTC

fxtentacle wrote: post #517

Alupis wrote: post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This whole self driving, fully autonomous thing has become some sort of strange faux-religion. It's followers see no other possible solution as acceptable. Instead of putting our heads together to make really good driver assistance technologies and being satisfied, the darn thing needs to also drive itself everywhere otherwise we're leaving something on the table! Untill we have zero deaths, we cannot stop demanding…

Count me guilty then, because I am also hoping to one day take a nap while the car drives me around. Until then, I found the next best thing is booking an Uber. They'll even use venture capital to subsidize my ride :) But wait, isn't that exactly why they are now in such a rush and cannot accept anything less than full autonomy? From what I heard, Uber has been burning billions of VC money to capture market share. An…

I'm not certain self-driving cars are going to save them. Right now, what they pay their driver's is the all-in cost for their fleet. When they switch to fleet Management, they are going to be paying capital costs and maintenance instead. I don't think the latter costs are much lower, if at all, than what they pay drivers now.

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#548

Post by khafra » Wed, Feb 12, 2020, 1:08 PM UTC

fxtentacle wrote: post #517

Alupis wrote: post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This whole self driving, fully autonomous thing has become some sort of strange faux-religion. It's followers see no other possible solution as acceptable. Instead of putting our heads together to make really good driver assistance technologies and being satisfied, the darn thing needs to also drive itself everywhere otherwise we're leaving something on the table! Untill we have zero deaths, we cannot stop demanding…

Count me guilty then, because I am also hoping to one day take a nap while the car drives me around. Until then, I found the next best thing is booking an Uber. They'll even use venture capital to subsidize my ride :) But wait, isn't that exactly why they are now in such a rush and cannot accept anything less than full autonomy? From what I heard, Uber has been burning billions of VC money to capture market share. An…

> Uber needs self-driving cars or else they'll go bankrupt. > At least, that's my theory.

I believe it--at least, I hope it would take an existential threat to make them push kludged-together pedestrian-killers into use on the roads.

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#549

Post by vardump » Wed, Feb 12, 2020, 1:10 PM UTC

fxtentacle wrote: post #187

I avoid new technology, exactly because I'm an engineer. I wonder if that is just me, but when new technology is introduced and hyped, I usually take a quick look at implementations, research, and talks just to get an idea of what the state of the art really is like. As a result, I have become the late adopter among my group of friends because the first iteration of any new technology usually just isn't worth the iss…

I think it should be emphasized this accident occurred in May 2018.

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#550

Post by smoyer » Wed, Feb 12, 2020, 1:10 PM UTC

fxtentacle wrote: post #187

I avoid new technology, exactly because I'm an engineer. I wonder if that is just me, but when new technology is introduced and hyped, I usually take a quick look at implementations, research, and talks just to get an idea of what the state of the art really is like. As a result, I have become the late adopter among my group of friends because the first iteration of any new technology usually just isn't worth the iss…

I've got a beautiful 2001 Mercedes-Benz ... it drives well, avoids all the trendy stuff but still has too many electronic components (most recently I had to replace the computer board that decides whether you should be able to shift). My daughter has a 1971 Super-Beetle she's stored in my garage ... when it breaks, it's something mechanical!