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Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

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Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#341

Post by asdff »

easytiger wrote: post #320
maeln wrote: post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is true. But what I wish for is better public transport in countryside. Automated train that can run also late at night and more bus would have relieved most of my woes when I was living in the countryside.

You could even make it so that you drive it yourself and keep it outside your home to use when you need. What an innovation that would be

Would be great if you could afford the $40k and insurance to house that 4000lb hunk of precious metal you spend energy moving around everywhere you go. A bus pass is a $1.75 on the other hand...

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#342

Post by neor »

stephenr wrote: post #237
allovernow wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know where you got these papers but you clearly got an awful sampling and I don't think you're giving computer vision a fair evaluation. Granted, we're not quite ready for self driving, but there's no question that the neural network subfield of ML has absolutely exploded in the last 5-10 years and is bursting with productionizable, application ready architectures that are already solving real world problems.

> Granted, we're not quite ready for self driving And yet it's literally in cars on the road. I'm not saying you're wrong because of that. I just wonder how far from "ready" we are, and how much of a gamble manufacturers are taking, and how much risk that presents for not just their customers, but everyone else their customers may drive near.

I believe every car manufacturer has a disclaimer that the autopilot can only be used as an assist. That the driver needs to keep his eyes on the road, and ready to intervene at any given time.

Were not at the self-driving level of kicking back the seat and watching netflix on your phone yet.

I doubt we will ever get there; there will always be edge cases which are difficult for a computer to grasp. Faded lane marking, some non-self-driving car doing something totally unexpected, extreme weather conditions limiting visibility for the camera's etc.

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#343

Post by eloisant »

ironmagma wrote: post #178
mrits wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not everyone wants to live in a dense population.

Call it speculation, but most people don’t really want all the consequences that come with the distinct lack of it in the US. Especially when you consider the economic effects of walkable areas.

While it is true that Americans rely a bit too much on their cars, and have built infrastructure based on it instead of public transportation, it's hard to envision a world where individual transportation is no longer needed.

Look at Japan, they have a great train network but still use cars a lot. Because while train works well in cities, you still need people living in the country side to grow your food.

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#344

Post by _ph_ »

Traster wrote: post #319
_ph_ wrote: post #266

The headline alone should show, what is odd with this case. * Tesla clearly states, that the autopilot is a driving aid and should not be used unobserved. * The engineer complained about the autopilot not working perfectly at the very place of crash. (Quite understandeable when seeing the state of the road and mostly absence of line markings in videos of the crash site). * Evidence seems to show that prior to the cra…

> the autopilot is a driving aid and should not be used unobserved. That's not an autopilot is it. It's driver assist. Like every other car manufacturer calls it (and incidentally, they don't have these problems).

Mercedes called their cars even "self driving" for a while until this was struck down. And show me the vehicle, where the term autopilot is used with a system which does not require the supervision by the pilot or helmsman.

In any case, while one might ask Tesla not to use the term "autopilot", they always clearly stress the requirement of supervision by the driver, including giving warnings and eventually stopping the vehicle, if not having hands on the wheel.

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#345

Post by asdff »

Talanes wrote: post #305
ironmagma wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But if you have denser cities, that leaves more room for rural areas. I don’t think anyone is arguing for less rural land, but as it stands, it is legally impossible to build another city like San Francisco or Manhattan in the US, and that’s a problem for sustainability. People want to live in those places, and not just because they are old.

It's legally impossible to even build San Francisco into a place like Manhattan. Most the city is only zoned for two stories.

LA is zoned for a lower population today than it was half a century ago, and in that time the population has increased by 50%. Enter housing crisis.

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#346

Post by Piskvorrr »

keanzu wrote: post #332
kgabis wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The footage shows how car's cameras saw the accident. Human eyes have much greater dynamic range than that, so I wouldn't assume that a human driver would not perform better. Something appearing pitch black on this footage could be well recognisable to you. Also, this car's lidar also failed to recognise the pedestrian so if this isn't an AI fail then I don't know what is.

This is absolutely a fail, a woman died. The question is whether or not this incident is an example of "fails harder than most average drivers" or a hard fail. With the sensor array available to it the car should have done better, no question. But to make the claim "fails harder" I would be looking for a clear cut situation where a human would almost definitely have outperformed the AI. Human eyes do have miraculous…

"There's something out in front of me, an unclear shape right in my path, relatively far, 6 seconds out. I will drive straight through it instead of slowing down, because...[fill in your Voight-Kampff test response]". Well? Is that at least 90% human?

Moreover, try this dashcam video: https://youtu.be/typj1asf1EM It's 10 seconds long, and makes the pedestrian look almost invisible except for the soles.

However, when I took that video, both the crossing pedestrians were clearly visible, not vague shapes that you only notice when you're told they exist. So much for video feed fidelity.

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#347

Post by pja »

keanzu wrote: post #291
fxtentacle wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The dead Uber pedestrian where the AI dismissed the data as faulty and did not slow down at all. I think every human would slow down if they see things that they cannot explain. An AI will not. It's basically the same problem as when an image recognition AI is 99% sure that the photo of your cat shows guacamole. Current AIs do not have a concept of absolute confidence, they only produce an estimate relative to the ot…

> dead Uber pedestrian Elaine Herzberg was in dark clothing crossing a dark street well away from any crosswalk or street lighting. Would a human driver have performed better? From the footage I saw she was nearly invisible, I would have hit her too. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufNNuafuU7M This was not a hard fail for the AI.

The video released by Uber was extremely misleading. Here is a video on YouTube of the same stretch of road taken by someone with an ordinary phone camera shortly after Elaine’s death: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRW0q8i3u6E

It’s clear that a) the road is well lit and b) visibility is far, far better than the Uber video would suggest.

An ordinary human driver would have seen Elaine & taken evasive action. This death is absolutely Uber’s responsibility.

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#348

Post by keanzu »

zaroth wrote: post #326
keanzu wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GM calls theirs Super Cruise which is true hands-free. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxeK0F-D3gg

GM claims "over 5,000,000 miles of hands free miles driven and counting." Current estimates of AutoPilot miles driven is ~ 2 billion miles. [1] That's 400x the number of miles driven under AutoPilot. I think it mainly comes down to number of vehicles. SuperCruise is only availble on CT6 which sells about 1,000 vehicles a quarter, and not all trims even have SuperCruise. The CT5 is supposed to be offered with SuperCru…

> We'll see if Cadillac can deploy the feature more widely.

"According to GM president Mark Reuss, the feature will be available as an option on 22 vehicles by 2023, with seven vehicles getting the feature next year and 12 more in 2022 and 2023."

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a30795396/gm-super-cruise-...

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#349

Post by asdff »

ip26 wrote: post #38
harrisonjackson wrote: post #6

Tesla says autopilot works but that driver should be ready to intervene. This is terrifying - like having a kid riding shotgun that might just reach out and turn the wheel while you are on the highway. Anyone who has driven with autopilot, how quickly might it react to a perceived obstacle? Would it take a hard turn into a median faster than a person could reasonably react if it thought there was something in the roa…

I can't help but think "ready to intervene" would require an even higher level of alertness than just driving the car yourself, as you have to always be prepared for it to do something completely unexpected on a dime- and to notice without the feedback you normally get through the wheel, pedals, etc... Even worse, if you are taking an action the autopilot should have taken but didn't, you are axiomatically already la…

I'm expecting legislation is eventually going to mandate the driver be alert and able to take control of the vehicle at any time, but this feature is just inviting reckless behavior (1).

1. https://abc7.com/5488646/

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