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Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

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Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#291

Post by keanzu »

fxtentacle wrote: post #249
JauntyHatAngle wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you cite any sources that AI fails harder? I'm not exactly sure what you are referring to.

The dead Uber pedestrian where the AI dismissed the data as faulty and did not slow down at all. I think every human would slow down if they see things that they cannot explain. An AI will not. It's basically the same problem as when an image recognition AI is 99% sure that the photo of your cat shows guacamole. Current AIs do not have a concept of absolute confidence, they only produce an estimate relative to the ot…

> dead Uber pedestrian

Elaine Herzberg was in dark clothing crossing a dark street well away from any crosswalk or street lighting. Would a human driver have performed better? From the footage I saw she was nearly invisible, I would have hit her too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufNNuafuU7M

This was not a hard fail for the AI.

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#292

Post by heavyset_go »

tonyedgecombe wrote: post #234
stiglitz wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Teslas are more expensive than the average car (hence might be driven more carefully), and autopilot is more likely to be enabled in predictable driving environments like highways.

hence might be driven more carefully I don't know where you get that idea from, when I'm out cycling it's generally the people in expensive cars that don't pay much attention.

If you look at the stats, luxury cars are involved in less crashes per miles driven.

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#293

Post by _ph_ »

heavyset_go wrote: post #286
_ph_ wrote: post #266

The headline alone should show, what is odd with this case. * Tesla clearly states, that the autopilot is a driving aid and should not be used unobserved. * The engineer complained about the autopilot not working perfectly at the very place of crash. (Quite understandeable when seeing the state of the road and mostly absence of line markings in videos of the crash site). * Evidence seems to show that prior to the cra…

> Tesla clearly states, that the autopilot is a driving aid and should not be used unobserved. From Tesla's own promotional video[1]: > The person in the driver’s seat is only there for legal reasons. He is not doing anything. The car is driving itself. [1] https://www.tesla.com/videos/autopilot-self-driving-hardware...

This is not demonstrating the system as it is sold in current cars. It is using hardware, which was not present in the crashed car (the hardware is standard now with all current cars sold) and it is using software, which has never released to the public. This is solely a demonstration of what the cars can do in the "lab".

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#294

Post by scraffa »

bananabreakfast wrote: post #273
rullelito wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People in general think this is what autopilot means since that is how it is portrayed in movies and books.

What movies are you watching where they turn on autopilot and the plane lands itself?? If anything, movies portray planes as extremely hard to fly, and the heroic pilot always has to take over from the autopilot.

My airplane can land itself. I always assumed that was normal.

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#295

Post by nestorD »

allovernow wrote: post #217
fxtentacle wrote: post #187

I avoid new technology, exactly because I'm an engineer. I wonder if that is just me, but when new technology is introduced and hyped, I usually take a quick look at implementations, research, and talks just to get an idea of what the state of the art really is like. As a result, I have become the late adopter among my group of friends because the first iteration of any new technology usually just isn't worth the iss…

I don't know where you got these papers but you clearly got an awful sampling and I don't think you're giving computer vision a fair evaluation. Granted, we're not quite ready for self driving, but there's no question that the neural network subfield of ML has absolutely exploded in the last 5-10 years and is bursting with productionizable, application ready architectures that are already solving real world problems.

> I don't know where you got these papers but you clearly got an awful sampling and I don't think you're giving computer vision a fair evaluation.

I disagree, I saw such an awful number of bugs in ML codes going with papers that I now take for granted that there is a bug somewhere and hope that it does not impact the concept being evaluated.

(here having everyone use python, a language that will try its best to run what you throw at him, feels like a very bad idea)

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#296

Post by bmat »

harrisonjackson wrote: post #6

Tesla says autopilot works but that driver should be ready to intervene. This is terrifying - like having a kid riding shotgun that might just reach out and turn the wheel while you are on the highway. Anyone who has driven with autopilot, how quickly might it react to a perceived obstacle? Would it take a hard turn into a median faster than a person could reasonably react if it thought there was something in the roa…

> Anyone who has driven with autopilot, how quickly might it react to a perceived obstacle? Would it take a hard turn into a median faster than a person could reasonably react if it thought there was something in the road or that the road took a hard left?

The only thing my car has ever abruptly/unexpectedly done was brake, usually in response to an overpass it mistook as a stopped car. It's happened maybe 10-20 times in 10,000 miles. Not enough to cause a rear end collision or even an angry honk. I've always had time to take over.

It's never taken a hard turn. The only times it catastrophically failed were when I knowingly put it in confusing situations: winding roads, poorly marked lanes, city driving, etc. In those cases I always have a death grip on the wheel, and the software seems to literally loosen its hold when it's feeling uncertain.

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#297

Post by lostmsu »

bmat wrote: post #251

For every tragedy, there are tragedies avoided. I can attest to a few. In the last 10,000 miles, Autopilot has: safely swerved to avoid a car that would have sideswiped me, preemptively braked after detecting the 2nd car ahead (not visible to me) had slammed on its brakes, and avoided colliding with a completely stopped vehicle in the center lane of the freeway. And FWIW I've never felt misled about Autopilot's capab…

In the last 10,000 miles I had no accidents. In fact, I had none in the last 50,000 miles. It is a big question if any of what you mention here would be as much as a touch, if you did not have autopilot in the first place.

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#298

Post by pferde »

perl4ever wrote: post #64
ip26 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't help but think "ready to intervene" would require an even higher level of alertness than just driving the car yourself, as you have to always be prepared for it to do something completely unexpected on a dime- and to notice without the feedback you normally get through the wheel, pedals, etc... Even worse, if you are taking an action the autopilot should have taken but didn't, you are axiomatically already la…

"you have to always be prepared for it to do something completely unexpected on a dime" This is inherently absurd, even if you remove the last three words. You could write an essay, or a book, on why this is an example of a class of impossible problems. Or, inverting it, it's practically the generic framework of all catastrophes.

You are being downvoted because your reply is basically an unnecessarily long "nuh-uh!" - a dismissal without any counterargument. Wrapping that in a string of fancy words does not change the fact that you are not providing any argument at all.

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#299

Post by _ph_ »

ardit33 wrote: post #280
_ph_ wrote: post #266

The headline alone should show, what is odd with this case. * Tesla clearly states, that the autopilot is a driving aid and should not be used unobserved. * The engineer complained about the autopilot not working perfectly at the very place of crash. (Quite understandeable when seeing the state of the road and mostly absence of line markings in videos of the crash site). * Evidence seems to show that prior to the cra…

Nice, blaming the victim there..... Bad pavement markings and "work in progress" sections, exist in almost every major highway... it is not an exceptional case, and it should not be treat such. The expectations is that the technology should work, or give you enough advance warning for you to take control... There have been plenty of videos, where the tesla autopilot seems to just steer straight towards a side wall, w…

Considering the victim has complained that the system does not work well at this very spot, the question stands, why did the victim use the system unobserved at this very spot?

And independently who was in control of the car, I showed why this section was in a miserable state of maintenance and dangerous by its setup, as humans regularly crash into this very section. So this section is dangerous and should not exist in such a dangerous form, especially, as the installed safeties were not active at the time of accident.

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#300

Post by pjmlp »

fxtentacle wrote: post #187

I avoid new technology, exactly because I'm an engineer. I wonder if that is just me, but when new technology is introduced and hyped, I usually take a quick look at implementations, research, and talks just to get an idea of what the state of the art really is like. As a result, I have become the late adopter among my group of friends because the first iteration of any new technology usually just isn't worth the iss…

Same here, always get those puzzled looks from non-technological friends when I am so picky about new tech.
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