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Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

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Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#101

Post by perl4ever »

keanzu wrote: post #92
perl4ever wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"At some point in the future insurance companies will figure out that self driving is less dangerous than human drivers and start offering cheaper premiums and deductibles to self driving only cars" Where does the faith in the tech and its future come from though? Wouldn't it be more logical to wait and then say "hey, Geico is offering a 20% discount if I buy a new car with these features, guess they must really make…

> Where does the faith in the tech and its future come from though? Well now that you've put me on the spot like that and I have to think about it: baseless I suppose. Just a general faith that technology always improves. > Wouldn't it be more logical Yes, it would.

"Just a general faith that technology always improves."

People seem increasingly angry about technology and tech workers though.

So it seems like the climate is oscillating between extremes. Maybe people are getting disoriented.

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#102

Post by seanmcdirmid »

salgernon wrote: post #63
perl4ever wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"And within a few minutes we got freaked out with what seem to us as unpredictable action and we turned it off." On the one hand, I'm affected by the FUD and will not buy a Tesla, and perhaps also will have schadenfreude to the extent their CEO has misfortunes. On the other hand, to be fair, other driver assistance features are creating problems too. I think it was Subaru I was just reading about having serious probl…

I have a Subaru with some sort of "Eye Sight" feature. It is quite handy in maintaining a constant distance from a car in front of you in moderate traffic - but you have to always be ready for someone to cut you off. It tracks the lane markers and rumbles the steering wheel. If a car stops short ahead of you, it beeps and flashes an indicator - I'm usually on the ball enough to hit the brakes myself though, so I don'…

My Acura’s collision alarm always beeps before coming out of the I90 bridge tunnel on the way to Seattle. It’s not like I’m relying on auto breaking to break or anything, and it’s never actually done anything beyond warn spuriously.

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#103

Post by spookthesunset »

m00x wrote: post #30
salimmadjd wrote: post #12

This is sad and tragic. I remember going with a friend on a Tesla test drive. He was eager to try the Autopilot system. And within a few minutes we got freaked out with what seem to us as unpredictable action and we turned it off. I think the engineer should have never relied on it. Especially if he had concerns with the system. At the same time, "Autopilot" is misleading and Tesla does own responsibility here. Even…

Autopilot never meant full automatic control. In a plane context, which was the most common until now, it's only used to keep a trajectory steady, and anything unusual has to be taken care of by a human pilot. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autopilot > Autopilots do not replace human operators, but instead they assist them in controlling the vehicle. Names don't really mean anything, it could have been named anything.…

> Names don't really mean anything, it could have been named anything.

Names absolutely have meaning. Why do you think Tesla named it “auto pilot” and not something else?

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#104

Post by retsibsi »

perl4ever wrote: post #86
eropple wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Frankly, this is disingenuity to the point of mendaciousness. Tesla knew what they were doing. Well-actuallying does not and will not change that.

I'm not endorsing Tesla or their tech, and I stand behind what I wrote as demonstrating the alternative to taking "Autopilot" as a metaphor - taking it literally. If you don't like either one, what's your justification for interpreting Autopilot in a particular way?

I think the important questions are how people actually interpret it, and (if we want to judge Tesla) how they could reasonably have expected people to interpret it.

I don't know exactly how they presented it to the public, but it definitely doesn't seem like a name you'd choose if you were keen to avoid having people overestimate its capabilities.

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#105

Post by denkmoon »

Balgair wrote: post #95
thbr99 wrote: post #7

Don't text and autopilot on level 3, which is a nascent technology. An engineer should know better. Wonder why a level 3 is allowed to market as an 'autopilot'.

> An engineer should know better Maaaaybe? I'm not a hydraulic engineer and won't pretend to be one. So I hire plumbers when things go wrong. If they screw up, I don't tend to blame myself though. I think the same logic would apply to the deceased.

I feel that an engineer in almost any field should understand failsafe vs fail-deadly. Tesla's autopilot is definitely not a failsafe system.

While this is somewhat callous, if this engineer had taken that seriously he would still be alive.

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#106

Post by torstenvl »

perl4ever wrote: post #40
salimmadjd wrote: post #12

This is sad and tragic. I remember going with a friend on a Tesla test drive. He was eager to try the Autopilot system. And within a few minutes we got freaked out with what seem to us as unpredictable action and we turned it off. I think the engineer should have never relied on it. Especially if he had concerns with the system. At the same time, "Autopilot" is misleading and Tesla does own responsibility here. Even…

"And within a few minutes we got freaked out with what seem to us as unpredictable action and we turned it off." On the one hand, I'm affected by the FUD and will not buy a Tesla, and perhaps also will have schadenfreude to the extent their CEO has misfortunes. On the other hand, to be fair, other driver assistance features are creating problems too. I think it was Subaru I was just reading about having serious probl…

I refuse to use Toyota's for the same reason. On I-95 in northern Virginia, people drive slow in the middle and left lanes all the time, so people are always weaving in and out of lanes trying to get around. This means you get cut off a lot. And every time someone cut in front, the truck would slam on the brakes well before it was necessary.

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#107

Post by tyrust »

jaxn wrote: post #45
harrisonjackson wrote: post #6

Tesla says autopilot works but that driver should be ready to intervene. This is terrifying - like having a kid riding shotgun that might just reach out and turn the wheel while you are on the highway. Anyone who has driven with autopilot, how quickly might it react to a perceived obstacle? Would it take a hard turn into a median faster than a person could reasonably react if it thought there was something in the roa…

I have autoplilot on the VAST majority of the time. It does not make any sudden movements. If anything, it brakes a little heavier than I would prefer at times, but there are rarely any steering problems. It has improved a lot in the 9 months I have had it.

>It has improved a lot in the 9 months I have had it.

A system like this should not have noticable changes in behavior over such a short period of time. In other words, I don't think they should launch it (let alone call it "autopilot") until it's done and stable.

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#108

Post by remmargorp64 »

Balgair wrote: post #96
keanzu wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is an extra cost option. Don't specify it and it won't be enabled. The hardware and software are still present in the vehicle, just turned off. There's never been a Tesla incident, that I know of, where the system has turned itself on . Every single crash has been after a deliberate engagement by the driver.

Unintended accelerations in Nissans were blamed on bit-flips due to cosmic rays. I think that one actually was true in the end. So unless you'd like to test the CPUs near nuclear reactors and electron guns, I'd say that there is a (cosmically) small risk of it turning on despite not enabling it.

Wow, that's crazy! I didn't even think about that, but I can totally see how it could be possible. I imagine that the only reliable way to prevent it would be to have multiple redundant systems that operated via consensus.

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#109

Post by spookthesunset »

nzrf wrote: post #90
salgernon wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a Subaru with some sort of "Eye Sight" feature. It is quite handy in maintaining a constant distance from a car in front of you in moderate traffic - but you have to always be ready for someone to cut you off. It tracks the lane markers and rumbles the steering wheel. If a car stops short ahead of you, it beeps and flashes an indicator - I'm usually on the ball enough to hit the brakes myself though, so I don'…

I also own a Subaru. The assistance is very unwelcome for the crash detection at times. Living in Minnesota the exhaust from a car in front of you can set it off. This can happen on start off of a green light and can completely decelerate the Subaru. The eyesight detects the exhaust as obstacle the car behind you is now at a loss why you are now immediately breaking off the green light. I’m not a fan at all and eye s…

The Subaru doesn’t have a forward radar does it? I heard it uses two optical camera instead. I bet smoke/water vapor can trip that up...

Our Mazda gets tripped up when adaptive cruise is engaged and someone pulls into the turn lane to make a left. It also can sometimes get “spooked” on the interstate when going on turns and trucks are in adjacent lanes.

Hasn’t freaked out with collision warnings though. Every time it has it was totally justified.

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#110

Post by [deleted] »

salimmadjd wrote: post #12

This is sad and tragic. I remember going with a friend on a Tesla test drive. He was eager to try the Autopilot system. And within a few minutes we got freaked out with what seem to us as unpredictable action and we turned it off. I think the engineer should have never relied on it. Especially if he had concerns with the system. At the same time, "Autopilot" is misleading and Tesla does own responsibility here. Even…

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